Bill Lear
Brown Belt
DID ROBERT SAY KENPO WAS MEDIOCRE?
DID ROBERT SAY KENPO WAS MEDIOCRE?
pete
Master Black Belt
hey robert, thanks for the direct and thorough response to my post on 5 swords. i get a little frustrated by all the windy internet posturing over who's teacher is better than who's, and all the my way or the highway attitudes blowing around the 'net, without explaining WHY. its like being thrown into an old monty python bit where i paid for an argument but received only contradiction! thanks for taking the time to provide a meaningful response.
with one hand or two, there need not be an "and" to deliver the handsword, in fact with one hand you have more of a circular, or better, and elliptical orbit.
we use an left three finger eye gouge, rather than the heel palm you describe, which is also fed from the orbit.
use both hands: yes, but a center check is useful, and can prevent that ball kick to the gut.
now, if he's gonna come around with the left, the handsword should check his width. but if you are late, then the handsword can be used as a block, and possibly morph into sword of destruction.
i can see your point as a teaching device to maintain consistency with delayed sword, but in delayed sword you are stepping back creating distance to nullify the attackers left. anyway, we teach 5 swords in an extended version at brown-1.
i still don't see any advantage of using both arms to defend the same punch, still see the disadvantages... can you see how the attacker can collapse his right arm, trap both your arms, and capitalize on your committed momentum to knock you off balance and attack your exposed right side?
with one hand or two, there need not be an "and" to deliver the handsword, in fact with one hand you have more of a circular, or better, and elliptical orbit.
we use an left three finger eye gouge, rather than the heel palm you describe, which is also fed from the orbit.
use both hands: yes, but a center check is useful, and can prevent that ball kick to the gut.
now, if he's gonna come around with the left, the handsword should check his width. but if you are late, then the handsword can be used as a block, and possibly morph into sword of destruction.
i can see your point as a teaching device to maintain consistency with delayed sword, but in delayed sword you are stepping back creating distance to nullify the attackers left. anyway, we teach 5 swords in an extended version at brown-1.
i still don't see any advantage of using both arms to defend the same punch, still see the disadvantages... can you see how the attacker can collapse his right arm, trap both your arms, and capitalize on your committed momentum to knock you off balance and attack your exposed right side?
OP
ArnoldLee
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- Thread Starter
- #43
I agree with and teach what rmcrobertson and TOD explain here. Which is namely not to stop and dwell on the two hands on one arm but to graft the motion of the right arm to the whip to the neck, this takes out the "and". Done with the structure that I believe that Touch o death is referring to this will instantly check ANY motion of the left hand. The stronger the person is throwing the attack the more injury they will incur most likely dropping on the spot.
Bill Lear
Brown Belt
I have found that the key to pulling this technique off and keeping it in the ideal phase is not to pause between strikes, but flow from one move immeadiately to the next. Your point on how to keep your opponent's left hand in check is a good one, that coupled with the knee check makes it damn near impossible for your attacker to counter this technique.
Good thread guys!
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I have found that if you are a bigger person, such as myself, when you are initially closing the distance (stepping in) and making your blocks, if you are moving with sufficient velocity (in other words, throw your big *** in there) and rebound to the handsword quickly maing sure to snap it back to flow into your eye gouge/heel palm (depending on which you do) then your opponent not only will not have the presence of mind to still fire that left hand, but you have cancelled him in a way that even if he is able to throw it at that point, it will be very weak and off target. Many years ago, when I was working in bars, I tried to use 5 swords and employed this stratagy, I never got to the left hand handsword, the opponent was down. Was it pretty, nope, but it worked. I think that in itself moved it into the ideal phase. He ideally threw a punch and I ideally knocked him out. I think the real point being made by all here is if you learn your bases very well, and tailor them to yourself, what these gentleman are all saying is correct.
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dcence
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- Thread Starter
- #46
Just do an experiment. Tell someone you are going to punch with a right roundhouse, tell them to do 5 swords. Then fake your right roundhouse and immediatley follow with a left to the head. I guarantee, unless you are slow as molasses on a cold day, you will pop em in the head with the left if their initial move includes a right block/strike to the right bicep, well before they have a chance to block with the right handsword or do the left palm heel strike. The thing is you never know that a punch is not a fake. Any technique that assumes a real punch for its execution will have problems if the punch is merely a feint. (And I train my people to throw feints and I am sure many of you do.) I might go so far as to say such a technique might have a fundamental flaw.
The right hand needs to immediately do the handsword to establish control of the centerline. The most I do is glance the right hand off the inside of their right arm, but that is only for doing the technique against a straight punch. By striking the neck you check depth and width (to a degree); much more so than with the double block to the punching arm. If that right hand crosses the centerline, you leave a huge gaping hole for that left cross that immediately follows, even if the right punch is not a feint.
Someone mentioned just doing the right inward block, I assume that block goes below the elbow though. This would only work if you are stepping back, but not for stepping forward.
Even if the first punch is not a fake, the force of such a powerful double block to the inside of the right arm can often propel and accelerate a left that is already on its way.
Just some thoughts.
Derek
The right hand needs to immediately do the handsword to establish control of the centerline. The most I do is glance the right hand off the inside of their right arm, but that is only for doing the technique against a straight punch. By striking the neck you check depth and width (to a degree); much more so than with the double block to the punching arm. If that right hand crosses the centerline, you leave a huge gaping hole for that left cross that immediately follows, even if the right punch is not a feint.
Someone mentioned just doing the right inward block, I assume that block goes below the elbow though. This would only work if you are stepping back, but not for stepping forward.
Even if the first punch is not a fake, the force of such a powerful double block to the inside of the right arm can often propel and accelerate a left that is already on its way.
Just some thoughts.
Derek
Your right but given you ended up in that position there is a dycodemy (is that a word?) of wheather you should attack the head on the first move which could then easily flow into a block for his possibly oncomming left(be it a punch or a kick) or using both hands to stop a potentialy devastating right. The answer is that you have to make a choice at that time. If you practice the technique both ways then I guess you will make the right descision. If you practice this tech only one way you are screwed.(1/2 the time) The most obvious answer to this whole dilema is to, when at all possible, put yourself on the outside and or just hit him before he knows he is in a fight. (an old favorite of mine HA HA)
Sean
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ProfessorKenpo
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- Thread Starter
- #48
Main Entry: di·chot·o·my
Pronunciation: dI-'kä-t&-mE also d&-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -mies
Etymology: Greek dichotomia, from dichotomos
Date: 1610
1 : a division or the process of dividing into two especially mutually exclusive or contradictory groups or entities
2 : the phase of the moon or an inferior planet in which half its disk appears illuminated
3 a : BIFURCATION; especially : repeated bifurcation (as of a plant's stem) b : a system of branching in which the main axis forks repeatedly into two branches c : branching of an ancestral line into two equal diverging branches
4 : something with seemingly contradictory qualities
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
boy a whole page entry to tell me I mispelled a word. Thanx.
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ProfessorKenpo
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- Thread Starter
- #50
You actually spelled 7 words wrong in that paragraph but you specifically asked about the one.
Clyde
... and you can say that with a smile on your icon.
What about their interpretation of Five Swords? Outward downward diagonal handsword is one way Mr. Parker did it. I promise, it check width, depth, and height.
-MB
What about their interpretation of Five Swords? Outward downward diagonal handsword is one way Mr. Parker did it. I promise, it check width, depth, and height.
-MB
OP
Kenpo Yahoo
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- Thread Starter
- #52
The further that one of your weapons moves across your center line the more checked-out you are. Also If you throw both of your weapons to any one side, then you are not only checking yourself out but leaving open a huge area to attack. To me these two reasons are enough to justify the split actions of the left and right hands.
Essentially the argument comes down to one of two things:
1) Do you use both arms to block to one side? Effectively blocking the attack at the cost of delaying any strikes that are to be made while creating a huge open area. By doing so you also run the risk of propeling the left hand towards you, or having your weapons checked if the opponent baits you with a right and smacks you with a left.
2) Using the left outward block and right chop to the neck, which responds to the attack with an immediate strike, and allows for quick manueverability should the left be coming in behind the first punch. It isn't as strong as the two handed block and may get you knicked if you aren't careful how you block.
To me the second choice gives you a far greater list of options in a more maneuverable position than the first choice. Also the longer you wait to hit an opponent, the higher the probability is that they will be out of position before you get in the shot. Remember a majority of fights are won by the guy who lands the first shot.
Essentially the argument comes down to one of two things:
1) Do you use both arms to block to one side? Effectively blocking the attack at the cost of delaying any strikes that are to be made while creating a huge open area. By doing so you also run the risk of propeling the left hand towards you, or having your weapons checked if the opponent baits you with a right and smacks you with a left.
2) Using the left outward block and right chop to the neck, which responds to the attack with an immediate strike, and allows for quick manueverability should the left be coming in behind the first punch. It isn't as strong as the two handed block and may get you knicked if you aren't careful how you block.
To me the second choice gives you a far greater list of options in a more maneuverable position than the first choice. Also the longer you wait to hit an opponent, the higher the probability is that they will be out of position before you get in the shot. Remember a majority of fights are won by the guy who lands the first shot.
OP
Kenpomachine
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- Thread Starter
- #53
Why not
3.- Blocking with two hands the punch, and if there's a left punch coming afterwards, transform the handsword to the neck into another block/handsword to the incoming arm.
We did a modification last Saturday with Sergio Contreras, but instead of there being a left punch, there was a second opponent, and it worked just fine
3.- Blocking with two hands the punch, and if there's a left punch coming afterwards, transform the handsword to the neck into another block/handsword to the incoming arm.
We did a modification last Saturday with Sergio Contreras, but instead of there being a left punch, there was a second opponent, and it worked just fine
I personally do not use 2 hands on one side, but the time interval is so small for the left one taking over the checking action as I flow to the handsword, as to be quarter-beat or so timing.
The what-if I found against the left, and by the way, their right arm is struck such that you do not provide rotational energy and accelerate the left toward you, is a right outward or upward outward elbow. You may, or may not at that point, continue with Five Swords, or graft into another technique.
Just another perspective.
-MB
The what-if I found against the left, and by the way, their right arm is struck such that you do not provide rotational energy and accelerate the left toward you, is a right outward or upward outward elbow. You may, or may not at that point, continue with Five Swords, or graft into another technique.
Just another perspective.
-MB
pete
Master Black Belt
derek,
if i'm the someone you reference in your post, you've assumed incorrectly... my right steps in to check or disturb the attacker's right knee, while the right inward block goes for the bicep above the elbow, left checks center on the block and orbits back to check the attackers right as my right chop is delivered.
i did apply this during sparring the other night and what was revealed to me was each time my opponent attempted to throw the left, it was interrupted with an outward parry against my on-coming right handsword. i had to use my left to check the inside position of my opponent's left, and find a body shot open with my right. this actually happened 3 times.
i just don't see why the technique would be taught with both arms and your entire bodily momentum going in one direction, creating a structural imbalance and a the potential for getting both arms locked up.
pete.
pete
Master Black Belt
derek,
if i'm the someone you reference in your post, you've assumed incorrectly... my right steps in to check or disturb the attacker's right knee, while the right inward block goes for the bicep above the elbow, left checks center on the block and orbits back to check the attackers right as my right chop is delivered.
i did apply this during sparring the other night and what was revealed to me was each time my opponent attempted to throw the left, it was interrupted with an outward parry against my on-coming right handsword. i had to use my left to check the inside position of my opponent's left, and find a body shot open with my right. this actually happened 3 times.
i just don't see why the technique would be taught with both arms and your entire bodily momentum going in one direction, creating a structural imbalance and a the potential for getting both arms locked up.
pete.
OP
dcence
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- Thread Starter
- #57
That might work, Pete. I would have to see it, but it seems the block to the bicep works contrary to blocking below the elbow when on the inside of the arm, and striking the bicep will accelerate the fist toward you, but maybe this is caught by the left hand. The proof is in the pudding and if it works with a full on punch, it works.
This is to everyone. Have someone do Five Swords on you, but when you throw the punch put your left hand up by the right side of your face and neck, which is how I teach people to punch any way. That at least blocks out the right handsword if not the left palm heel as well. Then sometimes I just drop my left hand to block the uppercut (while my right does a handsword to the left side of his neck). Just some thoughts.
It is fun to break down a technique and see where there are any vulnerabilities, because what is weak can be made strong.
Derek
OP
dcence
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- Thread Starter
- #58
Whoever is throwing that left punch needs to punch faster. Anyone I have ever done it with has a very difficult time being able to make that decision in enough time, especially if they don't know if I am going to follow with the left or not. If they have no idea I am going to throw with the left, then they will get hit with the left.
If you do the double blocks to the one arm, just make sure you don't go chasing the right punch past your centerline. It is so funny to fake that right roundhouse and see how far out people go to chase it. People really want to make contact, but the farther they chase it, the more exposed they are.
I do this sparring. Throw a couple of roundhouse punches really hard with no intention of landing, just to get them conditioned and see what their reaction is. Then fake it and as they are still chasing the right or making sure they will be able to absorb the impact that is never going to happen, come in with the left and hit them where they have already shown me they will be open. (But don't try it on me).
Bill Lear
Brown Belt
I can do it, and I'm not superman either.
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ProfessorKenpo
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- Thread Starter
- #60
Fatal Deviation comes to mind for some reason, wonder why.
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
