Three concepts on the utilization of forces

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Yeung, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    WC contains this "elastic" energy stuff you guys are talking about...its contained in the forms. Whether one is taught it, or has it explained, or trains it / utilizes it is all up for debate but it is there.
     
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Yes that's what I'm saying.
     
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  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I'm not a wing chun guy which is why this stuff is foreign to me.
     
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  4. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Tan Shou 攤手 means open hand, and is often used to describe the springiness of Wing Chun; it is like a piece of wood floating in water, and came back up when it is pushed under. So simple stretching out the arm with the elbow pointing downward and palm turned upward, and maintaining that stretching even when it reached its limit; when being push downward without resisting it then the tension of the arm will increase and return to the starting position when it is released. This is just activating the elastic component of the arm and it should work with anyone.
     
  5. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Maximize the recoil effect of a strike is by maximizing the length of relevant muscle fibres.
     
  6. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    You can learn the forms in a very short time, and it is the practice that makes it workable. The traditional method is just practice sticking hands until one can put up a good defense against the instructor and his assistants. Maybe people do not understand why Wing Chun work so well for some people by looking at the forms and a few simple duels.
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I don't use the WC Tan Shou to block my opponent's punch. I use double Tan Shou to drill a hole between my opponent's boxing guard. After that, I don't pull my Tan Shou back. I change

    - one Tan Shou to arm wrap (NW -> NE), and
    - another Tan Shou to head lock (NE -> SW).

    In other words, my Tan Shou will never come back the same way.

    This is why I don't feel the need for that elastic motion that you are talking about here. Even if I use Tan Shou to block my opponent's punch, After my Tan Shou extension, I don't want it to return back to the starting position. When I move my hand out, I don't want my hand to come back for nothing.

    IMO, in striking art, Tan Shou should always be followed by arm wrapping.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2018
  8. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Thank you, that was a really good example of preempted sequenced routine. Now, let think about the possible retaliations starting from fist contact when a punch is blocked by a Tan Shou.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    It doesn't matter who punches first, when your right arm contacts your opponent's right arm, either you will change your arm contact into a grab, or your opponent will change his arm contact into a grab. Do you prefer you grab your opponent, or do you prefer your opponent grabs you?
     
  10. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    Not necessarily...
    you may pak and punch
    you may pull and punch
    you may simply retract that arm and replace it with another punch (i.e. "chain" punching)
    you may grab onto his arm and pull while kicking low
    you may .......
     
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  11. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    If you intercepted my right punch with a right Tan Shou from the blind side and attempt to grab; the response is subjected to the direction of your block whether it is across. straight, or diagonal. This is not taking the stances into consideration.
     
  12. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    Seems a bit contradictory to me. Give up your own, you have already lost (keep but unleash when necessary). Combine the forces, not necessary as you have lost control of the fight already. Give them back, that is a counter attack to minimise losses. Sorry, but I don't understand this. Not a theory I understand.You can't unload or neutralise a fight, or any force with the same.
     
  13. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    There! You see what happens when you try to take a fortune cookie literally! :D


    But as I mentioned in a previous post, I've heard these ideas presented a little bit differently by my old sifu, Leung Ting, and I think they have some merit. The way LT phrased these ideas in English was not as advice for fighting, but was intended to describe a learning progression as you trained the system and went as follows:

    1. Get rid of your own force (i.e. learn to relaxe and get rid of unecessary tension).
    2. Get rid of your opponent's force (i.e. deflect, evade, and "dissolve" the oncoming force of an attack, don't oppose it).
    3. Borrow your opponent's force (i.e. don't just throw your attacker's energy away, but redirect it to your advantage).
    4. Add back your own force (i.e. when you can accomplish the above, you can add in all your own power on top of what you have "borrowed").

    According to LT, this is the training progression to evolve from unskilled and inefficient brawling to highly skilled and efficient fighting. LT maintained that the goal of training exercises like chi-sau is to enable us to gradually integrate this ability to "borrow the force" into our sparring and fighting, but I'd say that the same progression can be observed in all the fighting systems I know of. It applies to grappling for sure. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    My reading of "give up your own" (admittedly coming from a VERY different perspective) was that it was about giving up tension, using relaxation to absorb. There's a similar principle found in the aiki-based arts.
     
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  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    In wrestling art, this can mean a lot of things. In striking art, this can only make sense as the following:

    - Your opponent punches you.
    - You block his punch.
    - Pull his punching arm into you to meet your punch.

     
  16. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    Yes of course, I see what it alludes to now. I call it the coiled spring affect, take a bump, then give it back. At least I think I am on the right road here. To remember things mainly, I have to give them names until I get the terminology right.
     
  17. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    Yes, the more I read it now, then it makes sense. Probably been doing this in class with Sifu. We don’t get to do any sparring though until a higher grade, due to safety for our fellow class mates, and having to be very proficient in what we know. Some of us have clocked in class, but not in a reckless way of course.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I teach redirection in the block, itself, which can help set up grappling. So, a punch coming straight in, if I'm able to use a block (as opposed to just covering or letting it hit guard), I can send it down, which disrupts the attacker's structure.
     
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I take a different view on the "give it back", in that we (in the aiki arts) will allow their momentum farther in (getting ourselves out of its path) and add our own to it as we change its direction, or just add to it and send them off in the direction of their momentum.
     
  20. Transk53

    Transk53 The Dark Often Prevails

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    So far with what I have been taught, momentum goes forward, and keeps going. Block/parry and strike in quick succession. We don't actually use momentum in that way you have said. The trick for us not too allow it the first place. If we are in a position where the encounter needs to redressed, we go back and offer up ground to preposition and go again. Yes deflect and get them past, but would still be expected to quickly finish it by gaining more momentum tactically wise. We practice just going in mainly, but isn't at the detriment of our defence. Gan Sao for example would like delivering a sword cut to the arm. Hopefully I have explained it well enough.
     

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