Three concepts on the utilization of forces

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Yeung, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Yòng lì sān lùn 用力三論 (Three concepts on the utilization of forces)

    I can across the following link on the subject with translation:

    詠春梁國華 WingTsun Leung Kwok Wah

    June 3, 2012 ·

    用力三論
    詠春拳對「力」的運用有三個階段,分別是「捨力」、「卸力」和「借力」。相傳詠春拳為女性所創,考慮到女性體格往往比正常男性較弱,以剛力與之對抗,實為不智。故此,詠春拳提倡不以自身的體力,與對方抗衡。再者,即使不論性別,按照常理,恃強凌弱者亦會選擇體形比自己遜色的人下手,所以詠春拳對此的觀點其實十分合理。

    一般人如遇力大者襲之,多數以死力硬頂,靠臂力擋格,又或拉扯糾纏,是為「束力」。此不但虛耗體力,而且有欠靈活。所以學習詠春拳,首要學懂「捨力」,不去大量浪費體力去抵禦敵人。尤其當對方力量比自己強橫,比力氣根本毫無勝算,所以便要捨棄自身用力抗衡的念頭,方可進入下一步「卸力」的階段,應付對手。
    當學懂「捨力」後,便可以運用身、手、步的配合,順從對方的力量,再引導對方的攻勢落空,即是「卸力」。詠春有名的攤手、膀手和滾手等,就是「卸力」常用的手法。卸去對方的攻勢後,再利用對手的餘勢,加以利用,進而反擊就是「借力」。所以,若果對方的攻勢愈猛,能借的力便愈大,對其傷害亦會愈重。

    (如需轉載,請列明出處:http://www.facebook.com/WingtsunLeungKwokWah)

    Hard three
    Wing Chun Punch has three stages in the application of " power "," " discharge "," " discharge " and " borrowing ". said wing punch for consider consider consider consider consider consider consider consider,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Weak, against the power of the force, it is not ji-ji. Therefore, wing chun muay advocates not to compete with each other with his own physical strength. Also, even if it is not gender, it is common sense that bullying the weak and the weak will choose to do more than themselves, so wing chun punch is actually very reasonable.

    In General, people who have been attacked by powerful people, most of them are hard-to-die, they rely on arm-arm, or., are "Beam power". this is not only a waste of strength, but also a lack of flexibility So learn wing chun punch, first learn the "besides" and do not go to much waste of strength to resist the enemy. Especially when each other's power is stronger than yourself, it has no chance of winning more than strength, so we have to abandon the thought of its own hard-to-fight, and we can go into the next step of the "
    When learning to understand the " besides ". it can be used, hand, step, and follow each other's power, and guide each other's offensive, that is, " Discharge ". Wing Chun's famous stall, hand-in-hand and Rolling Hand, etc, is the used method of " unloading After unloading each other's offensive, reuse the opponent's yu, and then the counter-attack is "borrow power". so if the Congo of each other's offensive, the bigger the power can be borrowed, the more it hurts. .

    (for reposting, please specify: http://www.facebook.com/WingtsunLeungKwokWah)
     
  2. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I think it loses a bit in translation. At least that's the peanut butter of my continuing Botswana, if compared to verily the postal of fortitude. :cool:
     
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  3. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Four Principle of Power
    A Wing Chun practitioner must learn to borrow the energy of the attack by way of deliberately yielding. The energy the Practitioner receives from the attack is redirected towards the attacker immediately adding his/her own force to it.

    1. Give up your Own force

    2. Make your opponent give up their force

    3. Combine these forces together

    4. Give them back

    Wing Chun Theories

    · 捨力論──捨棄拙力

    · 卸力論──卸去來力

    · 借力論──借用來力

    咏春拳 - 维基百科,自由的百科全书

    Updated on 1st December 2018 Saturday 15:29

    A rough translation:
    捨力論──捨棄拙力 give up the use brute force or dead force
    卸力論──卸去來力 unloading or neutralizing the incoming force
    借力論──借用來力 utilizing the incoming force
     
  4. Cephalopod

    Cephalopod Green Belt

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    I find that ideas like this (wait...is it 3 concepts or 4 principles...?) are a bit like horoscopes. We can all, with a bit of imagination, think up a way that they apply to ourselves or the way that we train.

    Which means that the ideas, again like horoscopes, are kinda pointless, and don't tell us anything that we don't already know.

    Words like "give up dead force" and "neutralize incoming force" can be useful as a way of helping a student understand what to feel for in a teachers physical response to an action, but the real learning happens proprioceptively, by feeling.
    The words on their own are, frankly, a little pretentious. Kinda like the word 'proprioceptively'.
     
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  5. yak sao

    yak sao Master of Arts

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    My thoughts exactly
     
  6. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Awareness of position and movement of the body is not pretentious nonsense, but it is when one dose not know the difference between the use and non-use of brute or dead force. The Wing Tsun interpretation sounds like not to resist with any force. In general, most people do not aware of the elastic components of the body.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Most arts I've been involved with teach some component of not using force to resist - even those we'd think of as force-on-force arts.
     
  8. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    I think you mean quick release rather than not to resist.
     
  9. Cephalopod

    Cephalopod Green Belt

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    Of course it isn't.
    I meant that a maxim alone does not illuminate anything to anybody.

    Words like "combine these forces together" or " give up the brute force" can be interpreted in a thousand conflicting ways unless they are accompanied by detailed analysis of anatomy, the positioning of limbs and the engagement of muscle groups. The details can be conveyed verbally, or even better by feeling the responses of an advanced practitioner. Once the details have been established over long practice, then a maxim such as "combine forces together" will take on a specific meaning to a student and the words can be used as a reminder to keep him on track.
     
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  10. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    The English version of this I've heard goes like this:

    First, get rid of your own force
    Then get rid of your opponent's force,
    Then you cn borrow his force,
    and lastly, you put back in your own force.

    -it was a description of the learning process in Wing Tsun, from novice to accomplished master.
     
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  11. Cephalopod

    Cephalopod Green Belt

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    In the past I have been exasperated at some who threw around fancy sounding maxims to make it seem as if their wing chun has the 'special sauce', but who left me very unimpressed when I actually touched hands with them. (None of our esteemed forum members of course).

    Now I realize that I'm projecting and I sure don't want to be the one to stifle enriching discussion on principles.
    So:

    Can you describe a physical example of where in your training you effectively 'utilize incoming force'? What do you use it for? Where does it go?
     
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  12. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    I can't totally embrace the words on the page, it could be translation, but I also get queasy about absolutes, like - "never use force against force."

    I love techniques that enable me to use my opponent's energy/momentum/force and practice quite a few of them.
    e.g.- Bong Sao to Lop Sao

    But, sometimes I prefer force against force.
    e.g. - Front kick to the lead leg vs someone coming in hot. Their momentum combined with the opposing force of the kick is greater than the sum of it's parts.

    They are both viable. Being able to do either makes a fighter less predictable, more adaptable, and more effective. IMHO, of course.
     
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  13. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I agree with your overall sentiment, but to my thinking (don't know about the OP) although the example you give may use (your) force, it also uses the opponent's force since he is adding his energy to the power of your technique by running into it. Now that sure sounds like one good way to "borrow" his force, right?
     
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  14. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    Right, I would agree. The opponents force is relevant whether I am receiving or opposing it. I used to know Japanese words for this, but I've never known the Chinese descriptors for this type of thinking. Unless my opponent is just standing there and I walk up and punch them, their force/energy/momentum is a factor in the result.

    Receiving/Blending/Swallowing/Gathering is a different approach than stopping or clashing. Both have merit.
     
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  15. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Four Principle of Power is from the following web-site:
    Wing Chun Theories

    I think we better start from the concept of brute force or dead force.

    Brute force is a term commonly used by Taijiquan, Xingyiquan, Baguaquan, and other internal martial arts, while the dead force is used by Cantonese speakers if translated literally. So it is simply concentric muscle contraction contracted to the extreme where muscles became very stiff.
     
  16. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    I think this is a case of ''where does the rubber meet the road?"

    Vague terminology like you are using sounds nice, but there isn't much actual substance to work with.

    Can you provide real world examples/demonstrations to illustrate your concepts a bit clearer?

    I mean, I can make a statement like ''absorb the strike and return the force", but who would actually get anything from that? That could describe a million motions based in a million different styles.
     
  17. Cephalopod

    Cephalopod Green Belt

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    Interesting point.

    Another example would be timing a punch to connect as the opponent shifts his body forward. His forward momentum will add considerable ouch to the punch. But even then, if I allow the impact to momentarily build forward tension in my arm, the reaction will shove me back a little regardless of how uncomfortable my punch was for my adversary.

    That split second of tension is what I would refer to as 'force against force' with it's negative connotation.

    In that moment I may have some kind of mechanical/structural advantage. Maybe my root is more powerful than that of my attacker and I don't get bumped back. But that is making assumptions that I have learned to regret as I've trained with larger or very skilled opponents.

    I believe that, very generally speaking, 'emptying' power or striking energy into your opponent so that there is no tension left by which the opponents mass can affect your own is the safer, conservative way to go.
    ---
    Edited to clarify that the arm is not devoid of any tension at the end of the strike. It's not flaccid.
    It always maintains a forward intention. Point is that we emphasize never having that 'dead' force as the OP calls it, even at the moment of impact.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  18. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    As others have posted, these statements can become meaningful in the context of instruction in a Kwoon/dojo/dojang. But as mere words on paper, they can mean a million things. Clearly there are differences in the way different martial arts generate power and deal with incoming force.

    The clearest description of the way the Wing Tsun branch of Wing Chun does this is provided by the well known saying, Loi lau hoy sung, lat sau jik chung, which my old sifu, Leung Ting freely translated as "stay with what comes, follow the retreat, and thrust forward when the hand is freed". Or, even more simply, be flexible and springy, like bamboo or rattan. Alas, it is a long way from mere description to internalizing the action!
     
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  19. Cephalopod

    Cephalopod Green Belt

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    Fair enough

    True. But pretty much any martial art will advocate against extreme muscle contraction. Most other sports as well, for that matter, outside of the Mr. Universe circuit. Wing Chun, let alone any individual branch, cannot claim special status because it aims to avoid muscular contraction.

    But of course the devil is in the details. It is one thing to train yourself not to use brute strength to achieve a given goal, say strike or unbalance your opponent. It is another thing altogether to train yourself not to respond to a sudden stimulus from your opponent (a strike or shove) with even a fleeting moment of extreme muscular contraction.

    Now this is something that Wing Chun, and indeed the other daoist styles you mentioned, can potentially excel at.

    How do we train to not offer momentary muscular contraction in our physical responses?
    This is something worth discussing.

    Simply to say that your lineage "gives up brute force" is a little pointless, no disrespect intended.
     
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Bill Gates doesn't have to borrow money from bank because he has money.

    If you have a choice to train how to

    - develop 1000 lb force, and
    - use 4 oz force to deflect 1000 lb force,

    which skill do you prefer to develop?

    IMO, you should train how to develop your force first and then train how to borrow force afterward.
     
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