Three concepts on the utilization of forces

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by Yeung, Dec 4, 2018.

  1. Denoaikido

    Denoaikido Orange Belt

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    good old stuff op
     
  2. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    If you cannot tell the difference between a sport and an art than you should have a look at Loi lau hoi song lat sau jik chong in this forum:
    Loi Lau Hoi Song, Lat Sau Jik Chong

    Fu Shou, Tan Shou, Bon Shou, or internal Tan Shou are used to entertain an incoming strike and then send the opponent away with lower side palm heel strike, upper palm heel strike, finger trust, or a knuckle strike. In real fighting, one cannot afford to trade of as in sport with protective devices.
     
  3. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Then you have the other side of that coin. Sometimes I want to punch my opponent in the face where he's least able to resist it. It's the punch you don't see,,,,,
     
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  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    - Why do you want to send your opponent away?
    - I cannot tell the difference between sport and art. What's the difference?
    - Do you ever pull your opponent's head into your knee? Is that force against force?

    [​IMG]
     
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  5. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Oh, I made a spelling mistake, it should be finger thrust and not finger trust. Sending an opponent with a strike is a sensible thing, and this is all about fighting. Without going into details of doing a grab or Lap Shou from a Tan Shou, pull the opponent to the side by turning to the side stance and punch and if he or she pull back then follow the direction of the pull with a strike to the face. This is strength add on strength, or as a form of borrowing force. In a way, meeting a strike with Tan Shou is already a form of force against force. I think you should find the entrance techniques of Wing Chun in this forum, as that is something practitioners learned before making use of the wooden dummy.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not all sport uses significant safety devices. And not all "art" (I consider this a false distinction) is focused on effectiveness.
     
  7. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Let's check on the math here.

    When your opponent pulls back (A), he is moving away from you, if you strike to his face (B), it's

    B - A < B (We all know that rear end collision doesn't cause too much damage.)

    In

    - striking art, borrowing force means "head on collision".
    - throwing art, borrowing force means "rear end collision".

    This is why Taiji push hand does not make sense to me. IMO, pushing is neither striking nor throwing.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I suppose that depends somewhat on the purpose of a strike. If someone is moving away and the purpose of the strike is to keep them going in that direction (for defensive purposes, or perhaps to set up a power strike), then hitting them becomes B+A (adding to their "away" momentum). There are even some grappling techniques that borrow force via "head on collision" - you can see this a lot in some Aikido techniques.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    I don't know any throwing technique that use head on collision. Could you give an example, or put up a clip?

    Are you talking about your opponent runs toward you, you use your arm to strike on his neck, he will then fall down?
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2018
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Aikido’s irimi nage is a good case. This is a reasonably clear version (just ignore the context - I doubt that would work against a jab in that way).
     
  11. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    This is really similar to something I had people working on last night. I didn't think about it quite in these same terms, but maybe I'll revisit it tonight with this idea in my head and see how it feels.
     
  12. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Rules,
     
  13. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    It gets a bit difficult if you can not activate the elastic component of your body to spring back after the your pull and follow the pull of the opponent and use additional force to strike.

    Maybe you are talking the sport of pushing hand, as there are rules such as not putting the hands over the shoulder(s) to pull and no striking, etc.

    Most people use to practice using concentric muscle contraction to generate power do have difficulties in doing Wing Chun sticking hands of Taijiquan push hands.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Not all rulesets are equally restrictive. Some allow a lot of what folks in SD circles (and I'm in that circle, so I get to hear a lot of it) say they could use in situations that sports folks wouldn't.
     
  15. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Rulesets vary, of course, but one thing that is true of all is that they're intended to minimize unacceptable risk. So, in this context, it's reasonable to consider them a safety device.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It is, though I don't think that's what the poster meant, or they'd probably have referred to rules and devices. It seems a linguistic stretch for common conversation. Reference to the safety of sport is a common point made by SD-oriented instructors. There's some validity (as you pointed out in this post), but it's most often vastly overstated.
     
  17. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Do you agree that "rear end collision" is A - B < A?

    If your intention is to push your opponent away, A + B > A. But I assume we are not talking about pushing here.
     
  18. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    Between proficient Wing Chun practitioners, a fight without rule will end up in some forms of sticking hand techniques and who ever achieve the first strike will be the winner. The name of the game is to demonstrate superiority by control but very often that is not the case with beginners. Most clubs have some sort of hierarchical system but to formalize this kind of contest is not possible, and has failed many time since the Foshan, Hong Kong and Guangzhou Chinwoo Rose Cup Yong Chun Sticking-hand Invitation Tournament, Foshan City, Guangdong, China, 21-22 October 2000.
     
  19. Yeung

    Yeung Yellow Belt

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    There is a difference in pulling one's hand away and moving one's face away. Anyway, let get back to the fundamental of utilization of force. The example of tripod dumbbell rows is demonstrate
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I asked before: what does that example demonstrate?
     

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