Thoughts on the "what martial art should I take for self-defense" question

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by skribs, Feb 7, 2020.

  1. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    I think thats something we could all learn from
     
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  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    people are inherently superstitious, are in that i include all religious deities. there is little difference between praying to the tree gods and praying to a crucifix made of wood, its the same physiological need to have a power higher than yourself to appeal to

    there was possibly an evolutionary need for this, but in latter millenia its had a startling effect on slowing down the progress of mankind, though you guest it the scientific method. that is not only has supersticion lead to countless millions of deaths because you pray to the wrong idol, its killed countless millions more by holding back process in engineering and medication
     
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  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    We all know you are just trying to stir the pot. Take is somewhere else.

    Here is something for you to think about. I believe mother nature is pretty damn smart and has many ways of taking care of her planet, such as mass extinctions. This virus is a very good example. A lot of people are supposed to die to even out some imbalance in the nature equation. Mankind, being so smart, is trying to prevent this to no avail.
    It has happened and will happen again. Who knows? We may be in the precursor of another event right now.
    Selfish people refuse to think along these lines and only see what is in front of them.
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i was having a conversation about superstition with a friend of mine, when we were on a group holiday in north Yorkshire. he told me he wasn't at all superstitious, he was a rational engineer after all i, i told him he was and whats more id prove it by the scientific method.

    as luck would have it we were having this conversation in whitby ( a small sea side town)

    so at mid night we went up on the cliff, where lies a a ruined abbey and a small church with an ancient grave yard, this being the very same grave yard that featured as Dracula hiding place in England, in bran stokers novel,, its certainly atmospheric

    in the middle of the grave yard is a raised stone grave with a skull and cross bones carved on it. so i sat him on the grave, introduced him to Pete the pirate whose grave it was and then left him there, to stay for an hour for payment of 100 pounds.

    i hadnt got 100 yards when he over took me in full flight, pete had touched his arm, he had literally soiled himself and ran all the way home


    yes superstition is deep routed even in those who are mostly rational intelligent beings

    hers a picture of the grave yard and the second pic shows petes tomb



    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    im confused now are you invoking mother nature as an intelligent deity, or just referring to the process of evolution, which im general in agreement with,


    the virus as as much right to life and to reproduce as any other entity, including ourselves, however we generally go round killing things that are a threat to our species, irrespective of their equal status, mother nature gave us the ability to do this and we will in due course eradicate this harmful stain of the virus, whilst at the same time the virus will be come less harmful, to avoid being eradicated, nature is indeed wonderful


    the last point is rather my point above, once you considered that this or any other disease is ''gods will'', then you stop trying to cure prevent it and just sit there and wait to die, as to not die would be against '' gods will''obviously
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    speaking only for myself, it’s the tests and application the lead to skill development. So, you could train in an art that has a bad reputation, but if you test your skills and apply your skills, it may prove to e very effective. So, it’s not the TMA or rbsd that is the problem. Look at it this way, when guys train in a TMA and focus on application, like Lyoto Machida, It can be very effective. But that’s not what everyone does. The further away the training is from the application, the more unlikely it will succeed.
    I think this can be learned in a lot of ways, and MA is just one. In my misspent youth, and in the military, I managed to stay calm in a lot of situations without ever training MA.
    i look at it like this. If you’re going to build a shed, you could theoretically do so with a bunch of trees, a hammer, some nails, and a saw. But that’s the hard way, unnecessarily hard. Now, if the journey of doing it the hard way is the goal, knock yourself out. But if the goal is to have a nice shed, you will have a much nicer shed in far less time if you use a prepared blueprint, precut lumber, shingles, and other fit for purpose materials, And power tools. With the right tools, and a willingness to leverage what others can do, you’ll see better results.

    Also, when you say things like aikido works, how do you really know? What I mean is, in that situation, did the aikidoka perform better than someone who is untrained? No real way to know, without a study, but I can share anecdotaL stories about untrained people disarming bad guys too.
    again, how do you know? I wouldn’t be surprised to hear a story or two of success. So, the question is, what’s the real difference between a TMA and a “fantasy art”. If I trained in Light saber fighting, and used a poster tube to disarm a bad guy, does that mean light saber fighting is no longer a fantasy art because it works (for someone)?
    I actually like the breakdown. The only flaw here is that to do any of those things, you need actual skill. The advantage sports have is that you can test your skill against skilled opponents. Otherwise, it’s a mystery, the time to find out you can’t actually fight is NOT when your well-being is on the line.
     
  7. Gweilo

    Gweilo Master Black Belt

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    I admire your willingness to continue, even when you been done like a kipper
     
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  8. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    ... am not sure what that has to do with what I said. Sure, people are superstitious. But you're superimposing this on anything you see as spiritual.

    Exactly. Clinging to beliefs and identifying with them leads to some very dubious errors... millions of people dying etc. This is not exclusive to religion. And it's not actually religion that's the cause of that ;). My comment was not about religious belief and was steering away from that.

    I certainly would not say that's just some physiological need. The search for meaning? Purpose? Truth? To limit it to some physiological or chemical process... come on man.

    So is your 'scientific method' basically just to call anything that you personally don't understand, superstitious?
     
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  9. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    First, I have no problem with people believing whatever they want. However, while some fine distinctions between spiritual and superstitious can be made, they are at least in the same family.
     
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  10. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    I would thoroughly disagree Steve, they are not even close. I actually wish the word spiritual wasn't used, because it's very embedded in that it means something tied in with something "supernatural" that's believed in.

    But it may depend on what you mean by superstitious... I keep seeing definitions of it being related to either "believing in something not based on logic or rationality", and "a widely held but irrational belief in supernatural influences, especially as leading to good or bad luck, or a practice based on such a belief".

    Whether it's believing an act causes something to happen that's not based on logic, or a belief in an event occurring that's a sign of something nonscientific, genuine spiritual enquiry is not based on belief, nor is it a requirement, and is actually a barrier. I think it comes down to definitions...

    Even taking Zen as an example. It really cuts through all the fluff of having to adhere to beliefs and/or systems. There are still practices done, but they're not to gain an outcome, or not to reach an end/result, that trajectory is a barrier within Zen practice.
     
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  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    of course its superstitious what else do you call a belief in supernatural beings ? and its not that i dont understand, i understand the mental need, its just that no body understands it even those that are superstitious, thats why you need shaman to explain it to you


    now theres a moral dilemma in this, superstitious people are to my observation generally happier than those who live by logic

    im reminded of marxs observation that religion is the opium of the people, so do you have a population that is delusional but happy or correct but now having to face the fact there there is no actual meaning to existence and no reward in heaven and as a result of this truth some what more miserable ?
     
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  12. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Senior Master

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    Best of luck with everything.
     
  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    if you take zen Buddhism and remove the religious aspects you get mindfulness, which has been subject to the scientific method and shown in studies to have much the same effect on depression/anxiety as drugs

    which then supports my point of religion being a substitute for mood enhancing drugs,

    i suspect you could do much the same with any aspect of prayer/incantations and get positive results with out the need to pollute it with superstition or you could just take drugs and save the bother, organised religions generally have a down on recreational drugs as it makes them redundant
     
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  14. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    I think maybe I don't understand your definition of spiritual. Do you think your definition is common?
     
  15. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Agree with slight exception.

    Trying to break it down into simplest terms, I understand the term 'natural' as the things we are aware of due our senses (see, hear, smell, touch). Being complex beings we are able to integrate our senses to further understand and use things in our natural world.
    Throughout time there have been things beyond our grasp of understanding. Always have been, always will be. There is no argument that, over time, we have grown and figured out that some things once considered 'supernatural' really are not. However, there are 'things' beyond our grasp and understanding. As we know them today they are supernatural.
    This has nothing to do with mysticism and such. It is simply the things beyond our understanding.

    All that said, do I think there is a higher power? Yes. I will leave it right there.
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well no, natral is things that occurs with out the assistance or intervention of mankind, of man kind, our sences have nothing to do with it, there was nature long before, we were here to percieve it.l your other point has at least a little validity, supersticipn was used to explain things our brains couldnt othet wise explain, thunder obviously god moving the furniture,

    however as iur undrstanding of nature has increased, the need to invoke a god to explain it has also dininished, that taking into account varius religions murdering scientist, so it took us hundred maybe thousands of years longer to reach this level of undrrstanding.

    and the irony that religion is curently used to explain things we have a good grasp of and not at all used to explain things we are currently in the dark about, ive yet to see a religious expkination for quantum gravity for instance, other than the standard " god did it" which is raTher an absence of explanation
     
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  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    in a thread about arts for self defense, I guess the question I have is WWJT? What would Jesus train? I think aikido, but I don’t think it would have helped him much.
     
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  18. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    This is funny, in a gallows humor sort of way, and also quite informative. You think working to save lives in a pandemic is selfish behavior. That actually explains a lot about how some folks think.

    for what it’s worth, I disagree completely, and see this as nihilistic amd selfish.
     
  19. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Had to look up nihilistic. That is as far from my perspective and belief's as you can get.

    I am not at all advocating to not save lives. Never did; never have, never will. It is our moral responsibility to do all we can. How you read that into my comments says a lot about your cynical view of most things/people.
    I put the thought out to Jobo knowing others would run with the notion.
    If you think mankind can beat mother nature you are deluded.
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    we are not actually in a war with mother nature, nature is our mother too, every thing we do, is wwmhat nature gave us the ability to do, maybe we could be wiser about what we do, but thats only because nature gave us the ability to be wise123
     
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