This is what is wrong with TKD

exile

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I hate to be a one upper but in Rancho Penasquitos, several years ago a 4 year old girl was given her Black Belt in Tae Kwon Do.

Hell, what's the point of being on an Internet discussion board if you can't indulge the pleasure of one-upsmanship every so often! :D

Her parents run a Sushi restaurant on Penasquitos Road just West of Interstate 15, It is called Sushi USA. They have a little shrine in the restaurant with news articles, and memorabilia of their daughters achievement. She is in High School now I believe, or possibly college.. I remember when that one happened, I was stuck between disgusted and laughter.

So assuming the standard 'test for X dan X years after the test for X-1 dan', she should, at say 17yo, be getting ready to test for her 5th dan. Time marches on eh? :rolleyes:. She'll have her 7th dan when she's 34... nothing like an early start, eh?

I also have to mention that when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area for a few years I went around and visited dozens and dozens of schools, and the one that I would say had the best fighters was a Tae Kwon Do school called Golden State Tae Kwon Do, with an instructor named Eddie Croft, who also happened to be a Championship Boxing contender.. who would have guessed.

No surprise there—boxers train for very close range fighting, which is where most streetfights happen to start, if a ton of research on what Pat McCarthy labelled 'habitual acts of violence' is on the money. Of all practitioners of combat activities, they seem to be the main ones who accept the unpleasant but realistic presmise that your attacker will be close in, and striking at your head and other high-valued targets with the intention of rendering you unconscious or dead, if possible. If more TKD schools organized their curricula around that premise, as advocated by 'applied karate' advocates like Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine and other high ranking karateka some of whom also happen to have extensive experience as professional bouncers, the nature of TKD training would, I'd predict, lead to a lot fewer BBs for practitioners who can't tied their own shoe laces yet, let alone the belt itself. I think the McDojang belt-mill phenomenon, while separate from, is still linked to the dilution of the TKD curriculum to the point where its roots in hardcore street defense have become completely lost in many schools.
 

BrandonLucas

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Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too.
A clear distinction must be made of course between the differences of a jr. BB and an full fledged BB held by an adult. The article stated the girl was a BB with no such distinction. Granted that news-media don't usually provide such differences. So she could be a Jr. BB or a tiny dragon or whatever that school chooses to call them.
If that's the case then alright then, good for her and here's to looking for a great MA future.

Agreed.

I think that's why alot of people don't agree with Jr. BB's, because the line can easily become fuzzy as to where the Jr. BB stops and the adult lower-rank training begins.

If you set the transition at a certain age, then there may be certain kids who reach that age and just aren't ready to progress to the adult stage of training yet...not the adult black belt training, but the adult lower rank training. If they haven't reached that level by that age, then they're not going to understand why the rules say that they can be promoted but are getting held back, or advanced at a lower rank. Kids are still going to be kids. They're not going to be mature enough to accept an unpopular decision...most of them, any way.

So, if they don't accept the decision the instructor has made to keep the kid at either a Jr. BB a while longer to to advance to adult training at a lower-than-usual rank, then the kid could possibly lose the drive to continue going, and drop out. And that would negate the entire reason for having a Jr. BB in the first place...otherwise, the kids would be able to accept that they don't just attend class for a certain amount of time and get a BB...they would understand that a BB has to be earned, and that there is no set age to earn a BB, but earning a BB is not an easy task for an adult, and would be exponentially harder for a child.

And if that's the case, then why even waste the time and effort on having a Jr. BB rank? Technically speaking, it's nothing more than a place-holder.

The issue here is that it is up to each instructor to determine when a person is ready to test for a BB, and it's up to the instructor and judges to determine if the person has earned the BB or not. There are more and more instructors that keep popping up that are more interested in making a profit and keeping their students enrolled to pay the bills rather than holding a student back that hasn't earned the belt.

It's just going to keep happening. There's no way to stop schools like this from promoting kids to blackbelt...and when I say kids, I mean kids that are too young to understand what they've worked for...and technically, that applies to kids and adults alike. Crappy schools with crappy instruction is impossible to stop.

All we can do is to provide quality instruction to those that want to learn, and spread the word.
 

kidswarrior

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We have to change our thinking, IMO. For me, "rank" is a representation of a relationship between student and teacher. I think that if we continue the farce that it is something more, we will only get drawn farther into this black pit.
This is maybe the most illuminating thing I've seen yet on this long-debated topic.
 

Makalakumu

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It's been my contention for a long time that children and adults should have separate curriculum. For karate based arts, post Itosu sensei's major changes to make karate safe for school children, this is easy. The curriculum that most adults learn is really meant for children. 3K karate with extended distances, a focus on discipline and form, and a very safe and controlled form of sparring is based on the developmental needs of kids. So, if you are earning a BB in this kind of system, even as an adult, you really are earning a kiddieBB.

The difference between an adult's curriculum and a child's curriculum should be the difference between riding a bike and driving a car. A six year old can learn how to ride a bike well, but you really need full maturity before you can tackle driving a car.

An adult's curriculum in SD is going to incorporate principles and techniques that kids shouldn't learn or have to worry about. It's going to set a standard of rigor that children won't be able to meet. It's going to have a depth and breadth that kids would be developmentally ready for. Ideally, a the earliest a "kid" should start in an adult's curriculum is early to middle teens...and that is IF the CHILD shows an incredible amount of maturity.

I think of my Arnis training as a benchmark for this. The first day, my teacher put a knife in my hand and showed me how to kill with it. Are you going to teach THAT to a five year old?
 

searcher

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exile-now I am going to have to start my kids training while they are still in diapers.
 

exile

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exile-now I am going to have to start my kids training while they are still in diapers.

Well, if you want 'em to be able to reach ninth dan while they're still young enough for them to invite their fraternity brothers/sorority sisters to the promotion ceremony, you got no choice!
 

miguksaram

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because IN MY EXPERIENCE, it takes the average person a minimum of 4 years to correctly learn how to move, kick, and punch.

sure there are people who just get it, who will achieve the required level of skill faster, and some who will take longer, but we are taking about average.

it isnt that it takes four years to learn the techniques, it is that it takes that long to learn how to move, to develop the balance, timing and focus required.

that answer your question?

Yes it does thank you. I just wanted an expansion to the answer because I have seen so many people place time limits, with no actualy reason outside of "That's how long it took me". So it is good to get more input on why one would impose a minimum time limit.
 

miguksaram

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Child prodigy is one thing, they've a natural talent for it and all that. But me thinks most of the belt ranks are mainly for the parents who shell out the dough to pay for their children's *ahem* education in the MA and thus want something to "show for it". That the child sees themselves progressing in ranks is good for them too.

Now you have hit upon something. In modern society, at least in the US, we are always looking for instant gratification. Junior gets a good grade he gets a cookie. We push that same social philosophy on MA as well. Junior does a front kick, he gets a stripe. So perhaps one of the problems can be linked to our social outlook in general. I know we are talking TKD right now, but it is not the only art which pulls out 2 year BB's and 8 year old BB's. Many schools do this as a way to stay in business. Keep your customer happy or they go to a place that will. Thoughts?
 

KELLYG

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From a personal stand point I would have liked to start when I was a child verses as an adult. There have been people that have started early and maintained there training throughout there lives, some have posted on this thread and on this forum.

Is it right or wrong to have an year old black belt. Not for me to say. Depends on the year old. I have seen a few, and the material and testing requirements are identical to the adults, they even test with the adults. They are developing life long good habits, and are learning something that will stay with them forever. This training in my opinion helps to produce productive members of society.

Instead of comparing them to adults. Compare them to people their same age. I would never dare to compare my skill set at 44 to a 14 to 18 year old. nor would I expect an 14 to 18 year old to have the world experiance to understand what I know from my training.
 

FearlessFreep

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How's this

http://freeport.nassauguardian.net/national_local/293720930208233.php

When the rape trial of Mark Marvin Bethel got under way in Supreme Court yesterday, a feisty 83-year-old Arizona woman told of her harrowing ordeal with the man she trusted two years ago.

During her emotional testimony, which lasted the better part of the afternoon, the tae kwon do black belt said she was forced to use the skills she had honed to fend off her violator on that fateful July night back in 2007.
...
 

Steve

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Now you have hit upon something. In modern society, at least in the US, we are always looking for instant gratification. Junior gets a good grade he gets a cookie. We push that same social philosophy on MA as well. Junior does a front kick, he gets a stripe. So perhaps one of the problems can be linked to our social outlook in general. I know we are talking TKD right now, but it is not the only art which pulls out 2 year BB's and 8 year old BB's. Many schools do this as a way to stay in business. Keep your customer happy or they go to a place that will. Thoughts?
just a couple of things. First, I personally don't have any problems rewarding junior for getting good grades or a well done front kick. The reward has to be reasonable so that it's not out of proportion to the act and it shouldn't be compulsory. In other words, a new car for good grades might be out of proportion and if the kid expects anything at all, they'll be sorely dissappointed.

Of course, the real problem is rewarding half-assed behavior, which seems to often be the case.
 

mozzandherb

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I agree we cannot compare kid BB to adult BB, the only difference when I did my BB test at age 9 was in the board breaking. Obviously I couldn't break as many boards as the adults, but does this disqualify that I passed my test and performed all the necessary requirements??
Let me ask the OP this. Do you believe that 20 year olds should have a 4th dan? Or a 16 year old having a 3rd dan?
There will always be kid BB in TKD, I don't think it makes our art wrong to have kid BB
 
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Twin Fist

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No Dan ranks under 15

so no, i dont think a 16 yr old should have a 3rd, or a 20 year old a 4th
 

Makalakumu

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How can you be a "master" of anything at 20 years old?

lol
 

miguksaram

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Question for the majority of you. How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt. I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17. This we due to moving and changing systems.
 

BrandonLucas

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Question for the majority of you. How old were you when you started martial arts and when did you get your first black belt. I started when I was 10 but I didn't get my BB until I was 17. This we due to moving and changing systems.

I was 12 when I started in TKD, and was 16 when I earned my 1st dan...and that was going to multiple classes a day, 4 times a week, over the course of 4 years.

I have another question to pose to everyone:

If the issue that everyone is having is that blackbelts are being promoted too young, don't deserve their belts, etc...

What can be done, realistically, to preven this?
 

Makalakumu

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Not much. You can shop at a school where you think the standards are high and/or you can decide to set the standards high yourself.
 

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