"Thinning out" the fat martial artists

[deadhand31]

First off, I'm sorry for the horrible pun.

That said, I'm looking to get some opinions on what happened at my school's last testing. I was testing for 1st Degree with a few other people. I had a great test that really kicked my @55. At the end, though, I was called up to the Sabunim's table. At that point, they basically told me that even though I had passed, as a goal they wanted me to drop 20 pounds before I actually got my Kukkiwon Certificate. I suppose I can understand, as I am more than just a little chubby. There were apparently several others testing for 1st degree, and even some testing for 2nd degree that were told to drop some weight.

Now, my question is: Should a school be able to put conditions such as that for rank requirements, even if a student can execute the techniques properly?

 

[grimfang]

reminds me of a topic that was discussed here last year.. involving a New York school that fired an instructor because of his weight (Schullmans? I don't really remember the details.)
Its not exactly the same situation, but i think some of the same thoughts come into play.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

That is the most unfair thing I've heard. If they thought you were out of shape, they should have told you to lose the weight before testing. But, if the test kicked your @55, then endurance may have been a problem. If endurance was a problem, then other aspects of your performance might not have been as strong as you thought.

Ask them: was your speed, balance, power, flow, endurance, technique, performance, sparring, and attitude, etc. as demonstrated at the test Black Belt caliber? If it was, then what is the issue with weight?

If you don't like the answers, then you have several options:
1) Shut up and lose the weight. Retest when you are in better shape.
2) Take your business elsewhere. You should be able to find a Kenpo instructor sympathetic to your weight challenges.
3) Call out one of the instructors to a fight. If you can beat him, he needs to give you the belt. If you can't beat him, you'll agree to lose the weight. If he won't fight you, then he is a wuss and you have wasted your time training with him.

 

[loki09789]

Perhaps instead of focusing on the 'weight' i.e. appearance aspect of your personal training, it would be more productive and easier to justify on their behalf if they were to institute a physical standards test of some kind - like a military/LEO program would have.

To communicate the desire for you to lose a few pounds isn't enough. It connotes a presentation/appearance agenda. To communicate a fitness/performance standard connotes a healthful lifestyle and personal discipline agenda.

 

[deadhand31]

Ask them: was your speed, balance, power, flow, endurance, technique, performance, sparring, and attitude, etc. as demonstrated at the test Black Belt caliber? If it was, then what is the issue with weight?

First off, the test kicks EVERYONE'S @55, that's the point of it. It's mostly testing your ability to show no weakness. Second, the sabunim actually said that when he saw me walk out to the testing floor, he could not picture me doing the kicks as well as i could. He said that my scores warranted passing. He said I was able to throw the spinning and aerial techniques very well, and he wanted to see what I would be able to do if I was 20 pounds lighter. I was 303 lbs at the testing.

I also might have given a different impression than what happened. I passed the test. The testing was last Valentine's day, and I made it. I actually wear my 1st degree belt now. It's just that I don't get the physical Kukkiwon certificate until those 20 lbs are dropped.

If you don't like the answers, then you have several options:
1) Shut up and lose the weight. Retest when you are in better shape.
2) Take your business elsewhere. You should be able to find a Kenpo instructor sympathetic to your weight challenges.
3) Call out one of the instructors to a fight. If you can beat him, he needs to give you the belt. If you can't beat him, you'll agree to lose the weight. If he won't fight you, then he is a wuss and you have wasted your time training with him.

Well, I chose to take the first half of option one. I'm down 16 lbs since testing. It usually takes a few months for the Kukkiwon certificates to come in, so that condition is now a non-issue. As for option 2, my Sabunim was learning traditionally in Korea, where a fat guy going for his 1st degree would normally be unheard of. I think it might have something to do with a cultural clash. As for option 3, I think that would be a horrible reflection of my Posabunim's leadership.

Personally, I think making physical fitness a requirement for getting belts is a good idea. I think it can be a good reflection of a person's discipline, and show how bad they want the belt. I'm just trying to get other thoughts on this.

 

[deadhand31]

To communicate the desire for you to lose a few pounds isn't enough. It connotes a presentation/appearance agenda. To communicate a fitness/performance standard connotes a healthful lifestyle and personal discipline agenda.

Like in my previous post, the sabunim wanted to see my performance enhanced by being lighter. He also said it's a lot healthier for me. I'm inclined to agree. Being overweight is NOT healthy, regardless of physical capabilities. Also, being lighter will help with stamina. For every pound of fat, there's an extra mile of cappillaries for blood to go through. I might not feel the strain now, but if had remained at 303 pounds, I would feel it in my 50's when my heart would be straining to keep up, and I'd need insulin to combat diabetes.

 

[loki09789]

Like in my previous post, the sabunim wanted to see my performance enhanced by being lighter. He also said it's a lot healthier for me. I'm inclined to agree. Being overweight is NOT healthy, regardless of physical capabilities. Also, being lighter will help with stamina. For every pound of fat, there's an extra mile of cappillaries for blood to go through. I might not feel the strain now, but if had remained at 303 pounds, I would feel it in my 50's when my heart would be straining to keep up, and I'd need insulin to combat diabetes.

Again, it might be easier on your school operator/instructors to institute standards based on performance/health goals as opposed to weight. I like that you took the criticism constructively, decided on a course of action and have benefited from it. This is a sign of a good school, instructor, and reflects well on you too.

Question: What style are you ranked in, and what is Sabunim? It sounds Korean/TKD ish but I am not sure.

 

[deadhand31]

Again, it might be easier on your school operator/instructors to institute standards based on performance/health goals as opposed to weight. I like that you took the criticism constructively, decided on a course of action and have benefited from it. This is a sign of a good school, instructor, and reflects well on you too.

Question: What style are you ranked in, and what is Sabunim? It sounds Korean/TKD ish but I am not sure.

I'm now 1st Degree Kukkiwon in Ji Do Kwon TKD. There are about 4 levels of instructors in our organization: Kwonjinim(sp?), which is Grand Master, Sabunim, which is master instructor, Posabunim, which is School Instructor, and Kyokwonim, assistant instructor.

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Well, personally, I think Black belts should be in good condition in looks, but that's my personal opinion. My one instuctor is like at the peak, ready for US Open, and even he doesn't get it why the guy can beat him. I mean the other instructor is like 160 and about 5'6" and he is totally fit. Faster, more agile, and stronger than any of my other instructors. He may not be the best at forms, but he would definitely bust someone up if they wanted to kill him. I don't think anybody, not even one of those strongest men in the world type guys could beat him, even though he's not really muscular looking.

Now My Master instructor, who is a 4th degree, is unbelievably fast, strong, agile, knowledgable, wise, and everything a master should be. He's 30-50 lb more than my other instructor. It's just because he's been in MA for about 15-20 yrs and my other instructor has been in for 7, even though the one who's been in for 7 can beat all the ones who have been in for longer. I mean my Master instructor can whip the other one in no time. He breaks his bones, gives him welts, bruises and bashes and bloodies him. Yeah, the other instructor does his fair share, but its not as good as my master instructor. Master instructor is SOO FAST, and strong. I'm intimidated somewhat because he runs circles around me. LOL. It's fun fighting him, but I see there is so much more I need to learn.

So, What I'm saying is, it doesn't matter about the weight issue, unless you are baby huey. Or Fat Albert. It's better for health benefits, and it may be hard for SOME people to lose weight, but I know alot of Black belt heavy weights who need to lose some weight and don't deserve black belts. But that's just them. IT gives them confidence and all. Who am I to judge what they deserve and what they don't. If my instructors say yes, then obviously they earned it. It's all about setting personal goals and making it to where you can defend yourself. Of course, it does help if you are at a good weight that doesn't cause problems later in life. But it's not a necessity.

 

[RCastillo]

First off, I'm sorry for the horrible pun.

That said, I'm looking to get some opinions on what happened at my school's last testing. I was testing for 1st Degree with a few other people. I had a great test that really kicked my @55. At the end, though, I was called up to the Sabunim's table. At that point, they basically told me that even though I had passed, as a goal they wanted me to drop 20 pounds before I actually got my Kukkiwon Certificate. I suppose I can understand, as I am more than just a little chubby. There were apparently several others testing for 1st degree, and even some testing for 2nd degree that were told to drop some weight.

Now, my question is: Should a school be able to put conditions such as that for rank requirements, even if a student can execute the techniques properly?

What a bunch of crap! See, that's the problems with some Instructors, they attempt to run your life, and that is way off base.

In terms of health, of course, it's better for you,(We all know that) but also none of their damn business. Unless you're their dependent on their income tax rolls, they can take a flying leap. You completed the requirements, so you met your task.

Some people have no class, or tact. Go elsewhere, you don't need them. :asian:

 

[ShaolinWolf]

Yeah, well, at my school we allow anybody as long as they can do the cirriculum and memorize it. I don't have a problem because I get my Black belt in good condition, and I know that those black belts who are a bit pudgy will eventually thin our or if they stay that way, they can only get better. It's hard not to lose alot of weight in MA, unless you don't exercise or sweat. But I don't care. It's a personal choice to have weight on you. Its where you want to be and your goal.

 

[loki09789]

"In terms of health, of course, it's better for you,(We all know that) but also none of their damn business."

Your surviving wife or relative is upset and mad that your MA instructor didn't take into consideration that you were overweight/diabetic/heart attack rehaving.... and you drop dead... guess who, for right or wrong, could end up being sued for negligence because you dropped dead on the training floor doing something they asked you to do in a 'challenging/motivating tone' ("Go! DO IT AGAIN!).

Establishing a health screening and fitness standards is good business and responsible practice. It also is in keeping with the spirit and philosophy of a healthy body/mind connection of most martial philosophy.

 

[deadhand31]

Your surviving wife or relative is upset and mad that your MA instructor didn't take into consideration that you were overweight/diabetic/heart attack rehaving.... and you drop dead... guess who, for right or wrong, could end up being sued for negligence because you dropped dead on the training floor doing something they asked you to do in a 'challenging/motivating tone' ("Go! DO IT AGAIN!).

Well, my instructors will take into consideration physical and mental disabilities, they have in the past. If a person has a heart condition, they aren't going to completely waste the person. They will challenge the person to the best of their ability, however. One thing they don't make allowances for, is being overweight. In the gross majority of situations, it's a person's own fault if they are overweight. Since they could have chosen a better, healthier lifestyle, there are no considerations for those who are overweight, they are treated by equal standards.

 

[elcajon555]

I am from the same school as Deadhand31 and I was apart of the 2nd degree test. Now there were 6 people going for 2nd degree and they failed all 6 of us. The masters told the branch instructors that we technically passed all of the reguirments but they still wanted us to come back in 4 months to retest, and I believe a lot of it was political. Now myself and one of the other students from my branch were told to lose weight as well. The master told the other guy "you have great speed for someone of your stature, now imagine what you could do if you lost 15lbs" and I was told that if I lost weight I would have better balance then I already have. The weight thing wasn;t because we couldn;t do the requirements moreso that they wanted to see what we would do if we lost a few lbs. They even told our branch instructor that he had to loose weight. Throughout the test weight was a major issue, not because it affected what we could do, but because it isn;t as visually pleasing as they want. Infact we have demo teams and deadhand31 was told he could not be on the demo team because of his weight and not because of his technigues because they were just as good as everyone elses. They don;'t want fat black belts regardless of what they can do. And I think that is BS

 

[deadhand31]

Infact we have demo teams and deadhand31 was told he could not be on the demo team because of his weight and not because of his technigues because they were just as good as everyone elses.

Um, yeah, as for this point, my Posabunim fought against my Sabunim for me to be on it, and I ended up making the team anyway. So it ended well, at least. Our school's demo team has somewhat of a reputation to maintain. In all of our branches, ours is the only school that has a "Black belts only" requirement to be on the demo team. I think my Sabunim wanted me off because it might not look good for the team. Ah well, he hasn't seen me since the testing, and now that i'm past 75% of the goal he set, he might be in for a surprise.

 

[Rob Broad]

First off, I'm sorry for the horrible pun.

That said, I'm looking to get some opinions on what happened at my school's last testing. I was testing for 1st Degree with a few other people. I had a great test that really kicked my @55. At the end, though, I was called up to the Sabunim's table. At that point, they basically told me that even though I had passed, as a goal they wanted me to drop 20 pounds before I actually got my Kukkiwon Certificate. I suppose I can understand, as I am more than just a little chubby. There were apparently several others testing for 1st degree, and even some testing for 2nd degree that were told to drop some weight.

Now, my question is: Should a school be able to put conditions such as that for rank requirements, even if a student can execute the techniques properly?

If the school had an issue about your weight they should have said so when you first joined, and again before you test. If someone every told me that I would walk out on the spot, and take out an full page ad in a local newspaper to let everyone know about the incident. They have no right to tell you to lose weight to get your certification, sounds like their should be some golden arches above the school if you ask me.

 

[deadhand31]

If the school had an issue about your weight they should have said so when you first joined, and again before you test. If someone every told me that I would walk out on the spot, and take out an full page ad in a local newspaper to let everyone know about the incident. They have no right to tell you to lose weight to get your certification, sounds like their should be some golden arches above the school if you ask me.

I dunno, I don't think it's such a big deal. I figure, I could make a stink about it, or I can beat them at their own game. I know i'm going to enjoy going to my sabunim and saying "DONE!" Hell, I think it would be even better to surpass their goal twofold. Then I could ask them why they had set such a low standard for me. :uhyeah:

 

[Shodan]

I agree- this is just awful.........I have never heard of anyone getting on someone about their weight to this degree. Also, just because you are overweight, does not mean you can't be a good martial artist. I've seen some very good fighters that could stand to lose weight- seems like the instructors are over-stepping their bounds. Martial arts should be for everyone regardless of their size, physical limitations, etc. I blew out my knee a few years ago and had to take a year off to rehab it........should I stop training cuz I can no longer do some of the things like I used to be able to? A good instructor will work with the student- regardless of their physical limitations. If you were able to complete all required of you on the test and you completed it to the best of your ability and accurately, you should have passed in my opinion.

 

[Rob Broad]

I dunno, I don't think it's such a big deal. I figure, I could make a stink about it, or I can beat them at their own game. I know i'm going to enjoy going to my sabunim and saying "DONE!" :uhyeah:

If the school has a problem with peoples weight they should tell them during the inital interview, when they first join. Not wait until a majot testing. If it is a political thing I would be sending a letter directly to Kukkiwon, and let them know what is going on.

 

[deadhand31]

If you were able to complete all required of you on the test and you completed it to the best of your ability and accurately, you should have passed in my opinion.

Ok, second reiteration. I PASSED. I WEAR A 1ST DEGREE BLACK BELT AROUND MY WAIST. I AM REGISTERED WITH THE KUKKIWON. I JUST DON'T GET THE CERTIFICATE UNTIL I LOSE 20 LBS. AT THE RATE I'M GOING, I'LL HAVE LOST IT BY NEXT WEEK. It usually takes 2-6 months for the certificates to come in, so it's a non-issue, really. They'll still have to give me my certificate as timely as everyone else. Basically, the situation has been thrown back into their faces.