"Thinning out" the fat martial artists

[MountainSage]

Deadhand,
Here's some advice from a fellow big man in TKD. Your instructor showed no leadership in the situation, he showed that he is a follower not a leader. Leadership would have been speaking in defense of his student and that student abilities that qualified him as a BB. As for the master, when you get your Kukkiwon cert., roll it into a small tube, ask the master to bend over, and place it were the sun don't shine. He has demonstrated the true value of such a certification. My instructor and Master has commented on many aspects of my personal life and I have been very clear, and this is a direct quote,"None of your( insert foul word here) business!"

Mountainsage

 

[MountainSage]

No deadhand you lost, they won. You bent to their will. They have controlled your life for better or worse. They now know there is a price you will pay for a piece of paper and cloth and in the future the cost may get even more personal.

Mountainsage

 

[Shodan]

My apologies DeadHand for not being more clear on my statement above.......I was referring to the failing of your co-student ElcaJon555 who did not pass and the cause seemed to also be an issue of weight.

As for you, DeadHand, you should have gotten the certificate anyway- regardless of if you've lost the weight or not. So........if you hadn't lost the weight, they still would have given you the belt.......just not the certificate? That makes no sense to me.

:asian: :karate:

 

[loki09789]

They don;'t want fat black belts regardless of what they can do. And I think that is BS

What is your first impression of fat soldiers/sailors/Marines? As a BB you represent yourself, but also your school and entire art. They choose the Marines on the Silent drill team or the Army Old Guard based on very stringent standards based on appearance because of the impression agenda.

If you don't care about weight standards don't go to a school that has them. If you recognize that you are a walking example of your dedication to your art and your own self esteem, and weight is how you choose to measure that, stay at the school.

As far as the instructor, sometimes being a good follower of your seniors is as powerful an example of good leadership as well as 'throwing it in their faces'. From the sounds of it, they knew that the delay in cert. issuing might be enough time for a motivated person to lose the recommended weight. Also the wording was "imagine how much better you would be..." that doesn't sound bad to me, just challenging and a test of character.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Physical condition is a legitimate prerequisite to a belt. Before I tested for my Jr. Blue in 1974, my instructor told me I needed to lose weight, improve my strength, and my endurance. He worked with me to do so. That helped my proficiency as well so that I was able to test.

Bottom line is if you aren't in Black Belt shape and can't move like a Black Belt, then you shouldn't be given a Black Belt. But, not telling a student the requirements before they test...and withholding a certificate even though they agree the student met all of the proficiency and attitude requirements...

Man! You are being played!

If I were you, I'd take a few Judo or BJJ classes, then I'd challenge your Subanim or whatever you call the dude to a fight. Throw him on the ground and squish him like a bug. Make him tell you if losing 20 is enough or if you need to lose more, then make him call you master and make him scream "yes I am your *****" before you let him up.

Then go look for a school where they actually teach you how to fight and treat you with respect.

 

[loki09789]

"Bottom line is if you aren't in Black Belt shape and can't move like a Black Belt, then you shouldn't be given a Black Belt. But, not telling a student the requirements before they test...and withholding a certificate even though they agree the student met all of the proficiency and attitude requirements...

Man! You are being played!"

From a reread of the original poster's info, his direct instructor was negligent in promoting fitness/wt. control and was called on it along with his students. If the direct instructor is not upholding a standard that he was familiar with, then how can the students be held responsible. They only did what they were directly instructed to do. The higher level instructors in the chain of command clarified the goals and standards, after the fact admittedly, and allowed for correction time. LaTourette mentions the "cold rice" treatment as a test of a student's character/desire. Maybe this is a little head gaming on the tester's part to see how the testee's will respond as well. Not every test takes place on the floor or is about technique. Can't say I would like being on the business end of this stuff, but it does challenge the student....seems like the right attitude is coming through as far as I am concerned.

 

[Zepp]

My, we have some militant responses here. :mp5:

Ok, I see two ways for an individual to look at this:

1.) They're doing deadhand31 a favor by helping him improve his overall physical fitness. (If you were 303 lbs., then 20lbs. isn't very much to lose.)

2.)They're being controlling and discriminating against students because of their physical appearance.

If it were me, which perspective I'd have would probably depend on how much I respected my instructor or sabunim. deadhand31 seems to have pretty much taken the first perspective.

The thing that's worrisome is that they're asking more than just a couple people to lose weight. Is the WTF now enforcing an unofficial, unannounced policy of weight discrimination? It wouldn't surprise me that much. Appearance seems to be the only thing that the heads of that organization care for.

As far as eljacon555 and the others being denied rank for political reasons, that's just yet another reason why Kukkiwon sucks.

 

[MountainSage]

What does a Black Belt look like? Some of you seem to have an idea, but I think you might be sadly mistaken.

Mountainsage

 

[Ceicei]

Out of curiosity, I asked a few people what a black belt person "looks" like, they often bring up the names of stars in the entertainment industry.

Please don't compare black belts with the physique of Bruce Lee. Even he wasn't "perfect".

Many people were pleasantly surprised when Sammo Hung showed up in the show, "Martial Law" as the character, Sammo Law. In a way, I'm pleased. Perhaps Sammo is more like the typical BB out there than Bruce Lee.

- Ceicei

 

[7starmantis]

Sammo is a bad man! There are some things that athleticism will give you an edge with, but overall, the techniques and principles still work if your a little "fluffy".

7sm

 

[loki09789]

Sammo is a bad man! There are some things that athleticism will give you an edge with, but overall, the techniques and principles still work if your a little "fluffy".

7sm

Sammo was the 'big brother' of Jackie Chan and always a powerhouse according to the Bio on J. Chan that I read. He is an example of why I was suggesting that a fitness standard be emphasized over weight.

Things like a cardio/endurance event, an upper body endurance/strength test and a core strength/endurance evaluation are the norm. Add to that a sit and reach for flexibility/lowerback safety and maybe a pull up standard and I would be fine with overall appearance as long as the student/testee could meet standards. Body fat percentage is a more fair evaluation of fitness instead of overall weight - if you are even going to do that.

 

[MountainSage]

I am curious how these would be run in a testing. What exercises would constitute a measurable way to measure the necessary physical traits?

Mountainsage

 

[loki09789]

I am curious how these would be run in a testing. What exercises would constitute a measurable way to measure the necessary physical traits?

Mountainsage

I have taken military PT tests and worked as a fitness trainer as well, so there are tons of athletic/performance evaluations that could be incorporated.

Example of standard PT/Endurance test

1 to 2 min. to complete as many push ups as possible to measure upper body strength/endurance. Pair up so that your buddy is counting and you are doing, then switch.

1 to 2 min. to complete as many crunches/sit ups (USMC uses a crossed arm crunch to focus on abdominal core strength/endurance w/ minimal hip flexor recruitement) same pair up.

Endurance/Aerobic fitness gets tricky because of a variety of factors, least of which is space... but the standard squat thrust test for 1 to 2 min is a minimal time/space consideration endurance test. If you are comfortable with it, rope jumping or running for time/pace/target heart rate are also valid evaulations. For civilian/MA programs, I would work more from recommended health standards and base 'fitness evaluations' on whether the student/testee has demonstrated overall improvement from a set starting time/base line evaluation to now.

For the really gung ho, applying military/LEO PT standards based on age/sex for instructor/Black Belt candidates could be a way of creating a 'professional standard' for those who are striving for the level of the 'elite' within your program. There are a lot of fitness and health standards and evaluations available that are based on solid research.

I generally use Target/Resting Heart Rate and Blood Pressure as indicators of Aerobic fitness (there are charts set up by age and gender that can be used to indicate if you are in a poor, below, average, above or excellent range)

 

[loki09789]

Sorry Double posted

 

[deadhand31]

My apologies DeadHand for not being more clear on my statement above.......I was referring to the failing of your co-student ElcaJon555 who did not pass and the cause seemed to also be an issue of weight.

From my understanding, elcajon, and everyone else on the team, weren't passed because of balance. Balance and dexterity have been emphasized big time lately. At the test, the sabunim asked all of them "do you think you have mastered the techniques as is appropriate for the level of 2nd degree?". When everyone said yes, he said "Your standards must be lower than ours if that is true". One thing they wanted was a lot more intensity and focus put into kumgang, the 1st degree form. Only one of the students performed it at a level they wanted to see.

 

[8253]

First off, I'm sorry for the horrible pun.

That said, I'm looking to get some opinions on what happened at my school's last testing. I was testing for 1st Degree with a few other people. I had a great test that really kicked my @55. At the end, though, I was called up to the Sabunim's table. At that point, they basically told me that even though I had passed, as a goal they wanted me to drop 20 pounds before I actually got my Kukkiwon Certificate. I suppose I can understand, as I am more than just a little chubby. There were apparently several others testing for 1st degree, and even some testing for 2nd degree that were told to drop some weight.

Now, my question is: Should a school be able to put conditions such as that for rank requirements, even if a student can execute the techniques properly?

Man, dont be worried about your weight. I myself have always been somewhat overweight but it has never interfered with my studies of MA. As long as you have the mentality to know the difference between right and wrong as to know when you should use your art and have the techniques down and the ability to improvise on them you will do just fine. Dont let these people get you down. Just be yourself.

 

[wadowoman]

I have a female student who, when she started, was 39 years old, around 5ft5 and around 18 stone (280 pounds). She has been training for around 10 months, and at my recommendation taken up aqua aerobics twice a week in addition to her karate classes. She has also consulted a dietician about sensible eating. Losing a set amount of weight was not a condition of passing a grade, she asked my advice.

She has lost a fair bit of weight, her karate has progressed to the point where she has just passed her second grading. More importantly, her confidence has increased tremendously.

Advice like this is all part of being an instructor. That does not mean that we have the right to impose conditions such as those described at the start of this thread.

No disrespect intended towards the instructor concerned, this is just my opinion.
Sharon

 

[edhead2000]

It's better for health benefits, and it may be hard for SOME people to lose weight, but I know alot of Black belt heavy weights who need to lose some weight and don't deserve black belts. But that's just them. IT gives them confidence and all.

Just for clarification, are these "heavyweight black belts" that you refer to not deserving of their rank because of weight? Or because of skill?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

From my understanding, elcajon, and everyone else on the team, weren't passed because of balance. Balance and dexterity have been emphasized big time lately. At the test, the sabunim asked all of them "do you think you have mastered the techniques as is appropriate for the level of 2nd degree?". When everyone said yes, he said "Your standards must be lower than ours if that is true". One thing they wanted was a lot more intensity and focus put into kumgang, the 1st degree form. Only one of the students performed it at a level they wanted to see.

So the real problem isn't with the cukookwon, it is with your instructor. 1) He tests a bunch of students who are out of shape so that the testing panel has to tell them to improve their conditioning. The lack of conditioning is so obvious, they have to tell everybody to do the most obvious thing (losing weight); 2) Nobody can perform the 1st degree form adequately.

Obviously, your instructor doesn't push the conditioning and doesn't know how to teach the form. I am sure the testing board reamed him after the test. He is the one to blame for your school's performance.

You guys really need to go find a better school.

 

[deadhand31]

So the real problem isn't with the cukookwon, it is with your instructor. 1) He tests a bunch of students who are out of shape so that the testing panel has to tell them to improve their conditioning. The lack of conditioning is so obvious, they have to tell everybody to do the most obvious thing (losing weight); 2) Nobody can perform the 1st degree form adequately.

Obviously, your instructor doesn't push the conditioning and doesn't know how to teach the form. I am sure the testing board reamed him after the test. He is the one to blame for your school's performance.

You guys really need to go find a better school.

I spoke with elcajon on this issue, and it turns out I was wrong earlier. I only repeated what I heard the Sabunims say at the test. In actuality, it turns out that it's really a politics issue. The sabunims felt that it was not beneficial to have 6 new 2nd Degrees at this point in time. In actuality, they were trying to look for reasons to fail them. From what I was told, 2 minutes into the testing, everyone knew the sabunims were going to fail everyone. This really has nothing to do with our instructor. The sabunims usually work with each other, since the two main sabunims are the grandmaster's sons. Basically, it's the sabunims who really the dickheads in this case. If it wasn't for our main instructor, I, and alot of the other blackbelts would have left the school a long time ago.

As for our instructor not pushing us... LOL. You obviously have never seen any of our black belt classes. He pushes us very hard in those classes, if someone screws up, he gets them to fix it right away.

Basically, most of the black belts' loyalty belongs to our posabunim. He's the only one in any of my schools' chains that constantly gives the black belts something new to train with on a regular basis. The other schools in the chain have trouble retaining black belts because of this issue. I feel very fortunate to have the instructor that I do. I know that if he were to quit and start a new school, our branch would drop in membership, and my instructor would have a full class roster in a heart beat.