There Is More To It Than Fighting

[MJS]

I think you handled this situation well. While I understand that avoidance of conflict is important, I don't think that it makes us bad martial artists or bad people to refuse to be bullied or intimidated to avoid a fight. In point of fact I think that is actually a form of weakness and cowardice that encourages these sorts of things to continue. If you had shown the classic victim responses, then there is a damn good chance that it would have encouraged your aggressor to escalate the encounter.

I know that viewing any sort of assertive or aggressive response to this sort of behavior is viewed negatively by many in the martial arts world, and I don't want to come across as the Bad Guy Sensei from the Karate Kid movies, but the fact is that we are underneath it all fighters. When a violent situation occurs the ability to fight is one of a menu of choices at our disposal, and on many of those occasions it is the proper choice. I've heard this quote from so many sources that I can't properly attribute it but "Violence is rarely the right answer, but when it is it is the only answer."

By deciding to become skilled in a fighting art you decided to give yourself the choice to not be forced to have to back down form situations like that, or to live a life controlled by fear of violent confrontations or the threat thereof. Don't be ashamed or embarrassed of making that choice.

Mark

Mark,

I couldn't have said it better! Great post!

IMO, I think that often the standing up for yourself is mistaken as being a tough guy. There is a difference between being confident and spouting off to the badguy that you're a martial artist and you're going to kick his ***. Its interesting how body language and what you say, works with the troublemakers.

Mike

 

[astrobiologist]

Mark,

I couldn't have said it better! Great post!

IMO, I think that often the standing up for yourself is mistaken as being a tough guy. There is a difference between being confident and spouting off to the badguy that you're a martial artist and you're going to kick his ***. Its interesting how body language and what you say, works with the troublemakers.

Mike

So wait, we're not supposed to tell the bad guy that we're gonna kick his ***?! Oh... I wish I'd got the memo.

Just kiddin'. I'm at a point in my training where I am really interested in the fighting aspect. The damage aspect. I want to know how to effectively defend myself and others should the need arise. That said, I believe the philosophical side of the martial arts is extremely important. We need to teach students how to effectively judge a situation before they choose whether or not to get involved.

 

[MJS]

So wait, we're not supposed to tell the bad guy that we're gonna kick his ***?! Oh... I wish I'd got the memo.

LOL.

Just kiddin'. I'm at a point in my training where I am really interested in the fighting aspect. The damage aspect. I want to know how to effectively defend myself and others should the need arise. That said, I believe the philosophical side of the martial arts is extremely important. We need to teach students how to effectively judge a situation before they choose whether or not to get involved.

I think that many times, stuff like this is left out of the training. Everything is technique, technique, technique, kata, kata, kata, but none of the analyzing of the pre-fight. I also think that out of fear of getting sued, the talk your way out at all costs, and apologize until you're blue in the face speech, takes priority over the be confident and stand your ground speech.

 

[Cryozombie]

Ya know honestly... Martial, Spiritual, other...

I train cuz Chicks Dig It.

If I can fight or meditate or do freakin Ballet is all secondary to the fact that Chicks Dig It.

Woot!

 

[shihansmurf]

Ya know honestly... Martial, Spiritual, other...

I train cuz Chicks Dig It.

If I can fight or meditate or do freakin Ballet is all secondary to the fact that Chicks Dig It.

Woot!

Is there really a better reason to do anything?

Mark

 

[just2kicku]

Thanks for your reply. I wasn't just speaking of myself in that post, but anyone who puts SD on a higher level than backing down and assuming that if we do, all will be ok. Personally, I know what type of a person I am, which is not a bully, troublemaker, etc, so I'm not really concerned as to what someone thinks I am, because of a post. Personally, I think its pretty funny, well maybe not too funny, when someone thinks that you're a bully because you dont backdown to a bully, a punk trying to intimidate you, rob you, etc.



Oh ****...I got one standing over my shoulder as I type this! LOL!

I realize that. I was just using your example.

I stay out of trouble. I mind my own business, I'm not a bully, but why should anyone not stand up for themselves against a bully or someone trying to intimidate you.

For me, I feel the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it sure as hell doesn't get drawn by backing down all the time just to stay "safe". All that does is empower the bully. If everyone stood their ground, the amount of people getting bullied would go down.

Does that make someone less of a MAist? No, I don't think so. We train to end a confrontation, however that may be.

 

[just2kicku]

Is there really a better reason to do anything?

Mark

Umm........No!

 

[Shizen Shigoku]

it's fun.

 

[geezer]

OK, I just skimmed back through most of this thread to catch up. What I really don't get is how the conversation split into a discussion of fighting vs art. That dichotomy strikes me as a very "Western" concept. I am an artist (sculptor), a craftsman (potter), and an art teacher by profession. In our culture we tend to divorce "art" from functionality. This is not necessarily so in other cultures. Great art may be absolutely functional... our Western terms for this are "skill" and "craft". We tend to see art as something non-functional and elite, meant to hang uselessly on a gallery wall. In the East the concepts of art and skill/craft are blended. So in Japan you have terms like "jutsu", and in China, "kung-fu". Such terms, I've been told, can refer to great skill and mastery of any craft. So you could have a master potter show off his "kung-fu" as he makes a teapot, for example. (try googling Ah Leon).

Now, when you blend this concept of art as superb skill or craft with the concept of effective combat the result is what we call "martial arts". By definition, the more functional and effective it is, the better it is as an art. If you can fight and win by brawling, that's OK. Maybe you are just big, strong and aggressive. If you can learn to fight and win by applying greater skill... you are using martial art. On the other hand, if you train a lot of useless pseudo-martial dance moves and get your *** whupped... that's not art or skill. It's garbage.

The way I look at it, when I see someone use a simpler, more efficient and reliable way to defeat an opponent... that's art!

 

[MJS]

I realize that. I was just using your example.

Oh I know. My apologies, as I think my post kinda sounded like I was picking on your reply. I think some of my past posts have given others the impression that I'm something that I'm really not.

I stay out of trouble. I mind my own business, I'm not a bully, but why should anyone not stand up for themselves against a bully or someone trying to intimidate you.

My friend, I agree with you 100% on that!

For me, I feel the line has to be drawn somewhere, and it sure as hell doesn't get drawn by backing down all the time just to stay "safe". All that does is empower the bully. If everyone stood their ground, the amount of people getting bullied would go down.

Does that make someone less of a MAist? No, I don't think so. We train to end a confrontation, however that may be.

Exactly!

 

[MJS]

OK, I just skimmed back through most of this thread to catch up. What I really don't get is how the conversation split into a discussion of fighting vs art. That dichotomy strikes me as a very "Western" concept. I am an artist (sculptor), a craftsman (potter), and an art teacher by profession. In our culture we tend to divorce "art" from functionality. This is not necessarily so in other cultures. Great art may be absolutely functional... our Western terms for this are "skill" and "craft". We tend to see art as something non-functional and elite, meant to hang uselessly on a gallery wall. In the East the concepts of art and skill/craft are blended. So in Japan you have terms like "jutsu", and in China, "kung-fu". Such terms, I've been told, can refer to great skill and mastery of any craft. So you could have a master potter show off his "kung-fu" as he makes a teapot, for example. (try googling Ah Leon).

Not quite sure what you mean by the discussion split. There are at least 2 lines of thinking....1 that views fighting as an extreme last resort, and another that doesn't place it as far back. Now, this isn't to say that we should just throw down at the drop of a hat, but I get the distinct impression that people would let themselves get pushed and pushed, past the point when they should act. As an example...someone posted a clip on here, forget where exactly, but it showed this punk getting in the face of a martial artist, pushing him, standing right up on him, etc., and the MAist let this go on and on and on, until finally he acted. That, IMO, is the way some people think it should happen, but in a case like that, it should have been over much sooner. But as we see in the clip, the MAist appeared to be using the calm side, when he should have layed that punk out much sooner. There is also again, IMO, an assumption that if we just lay low, everything will be ok. By being timid vs. being confident and sure of yourself, the assumption is that is the better route.

All that said, that is the 2 lines of thinking. One who fights and one who feels that the art side should play more of a role.

Now, when you blend this concept of art as superb skill or craft with the concept of effective combat the result is what we call "martial arts". By definition, the more functional and effective it is, the better it is as an art. If you can fight and win by brawling, that's OK. Maybe you are just big, strong and aggressive. If you can learn to fight and win by applying greater skill... you are using martial art. On the other hand, if you train a lot of useless pseudo-martial dance moves and get your *** whupped... that's not art or skill. It's garbage.

The way I look at it, when I see someone use a simpler, more efficient and reliable way to defeat an opponent... that's art!

Good analogy.

 

[just2kicku]

Oh I know. My apologies, as I think my post kinda sounded like I was picking on your reply. I think some of my past posts have given others the impression that I'm something that I'm really not.

No apologies neccessary. I did not think that at all.

Joe

 

[seasoned]

I think there is an age consideration involved here. When I was young, I would throw down early on. Since I am a senior citizen now, it causes me a little more concern, in the "is it truly valid" department.

 

[dnovice]

I practice ma for the same reason I practice soccer. I see it as a way of understanding myself. In soccer I think of what moves I can use to blow by a defender. I keep pushing myself learning from my mistakes. In ma I think how can I efficiently hit someone, parry, control the other persons balance so as to not escalate violence.

I guess it's like a puzzle I put my whole being into figuring out. By being completely immersed in whatever ma it makes me relax, and forget lives problems.

For me it's not not about fighting I enjoy the learning process.

 

[dnovice]

I am a bit confused as to y martial is being differentiated from art. To me an art involves focusing on something to it do the best way you can do it . Therefore dance, soccer, wing chun , and drawing are all arts to me. The only difference is im focusing on being the best dribbler on a soccer field, or the best dancer, or the best fighter i can be. Now just because i want to be the best fighter i can be doesnt mean i like to fight, rather its simply that i want to improve myself through fight analysis.

I guess it boils down to your definition of art.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I am a bit confused as to y martial is being differentiated from art. To me an art involves focusing on something to it do the best way you can do it.

This is my view on the word as well.

But what has happened over the past thirty years is that a mentality has crept in that has made fighting and technique secondary to confidence, affirmation, and repetition of forms. The reasoning is, "its a martial art, not fighting," and this is the excuse that is hidden behind by school owners who are either too lazy or unable to provide authentic training. They disguise their shortcomings with trappings and say that because it is 'art' that their students do not need to be able to fight, and thus defend themselves.

Because the bulk of people in the west associate the word, art, with the fine arts, this excuse actually has traction. Remember, most people do not feel that art is objective; one of the reasons that people can dump used motor oil on a canvas and then sign their name to it and call it art.

People are ignorant, mainly out of laziness. Thus they are conned by the 'its art' excuse.

Daniel

 

[geezer]

...They disguise their shortcomings with trappings and say that because it is 'art' that their students do not need to be able to fight, and thus defend themselves. ...Because the bulk of people in the west associate the word, art, with the fine arts, this excuse actually has traction. Remember, most people do not feel that art is objective;

The most important qualities of "fine art" are impossible to quantify and discuss objectively, or as the Romans used to say "De gustabus non est disputandum" -- which roughly translates as, "there ain't no point in arguing 'bout taste".
Now art as high craft or skill is a different sort of animal. Think of something like very fine carpentry, metal smithing or pottery. In addition to appearance and style, it has an objective function. The martial arts fall into this class. And if your style is pretty but not functional... you've got a big problem! When it comes to MAs, I'm a big fan of the old bauhaus saying, "Form follows function". And the better it functions, the better it is as art!

one of the reasons that people can dump used motor oil on a canvas and then sign their name to it and call it art.;

Hey what else are you supposed to do with used oil? And if I can pee on the wall and get people to pay me, that's not my problem, is it! hehehe.

 

[BLACK LION]

my training began(age 5) with the arts in mind and continued as such for many years... fighting or hurting someone was always a last resort which in fact never really came outside of sparring and competitive combat sports....I was mezmerized by tv and movies as well as competitions and ultimately the newly founded "ufc"... It was not until my teenage years came to an end and I had been assaulted by multiple asssailants on several occassions as well as the stabbing and shooting deaths of two close friends( both "great fighters") and a few life threatening situations of my own... I decided to journey alone, subtracting the art and embracing the warrior... habituating violence and training to exploit and destroy the human anatomy... becoming grossly intimate with the blade and firearms as well as even more perverse training and tactics...

by adopting and harboring the means to end life, I in-turn adopted and harbor the the ultimate respect for life and the need to preserve it. I derive no pleasure or sorrow I remain completely neutral... In that I merely train to assault targets wether it be 1 or 100...

I no longer "fight" and refuse to be part of any social altercation outside of an argument with family...
no more competition... no more sports... just the destruction of tissue , bone and everything in between... I have no more ego...my goals are now selfless... I am merely a mechanism for whats right and whats just...

to me its about safety, survival and preserving life.... if its not, then I take no part...

 

[dnovice]

They disguise their shortcomings with trappings and say that because it is 'art' that their students do not need to be able to fight, and thus defend themselves.

Because the bulk of people in the west associate the word, art, with the fine arts, this excuse actually has traction. Remember, most people do not feel that art is objective; one of the reasons that people can dump used motor oil on a canvas and then sign their name to it and call it art.

People are ignorant, mainly out of laziness. Thus they are conned by the 'its art' excuse.

Daniel

I see now. In short the word art is being used erronneously. Rather than art they are refering to the PURPOSE of ma.

That said ma can learned for whatever purpose you like, but you must be honest with yourself in that regard. If its for confidence ... What is it that makes you confident? If its for exercise ....lol(not even sure what say. haha)

The teacher on the hand can't be so liberal since he is teaching a martial art. His students can do as they please.

I think virtues of ma are mentioned because instructors dont want students to go look for fights. These virtues are seperate from the material itself.

In college there are different kinds of instructors. Some give you the material and have you learn to apply it yourself... Then you can ask questions if you like. Some would teach you ways of applying material... Both ways of teaching are ok. The student has to know what works for him.

I guess i'm saying that its the students fault if he cant apply what has learned. However, if non of his students are capable... Then the instructor should rethink teaching...........

 

[Uchinanchu]

Many traditional 'arts' usually have at least five or more basic precepts that they attempt to instill in their practitioners. One such list of precepts might be nothing more than simple words or phrases that are meant to help the said practioner focus on what is trully important in not only one's training, but in one's daily life as well. Here is one such list:
1. Patience
2. kindness
3.humility
4. persaverance
5. awareness

Such a list is often followed with a simple maxim/explanation, such as, "These five fingers are what one needs in order to develop a trully strong 'fist'. If one or more is weak (untrained) then your 'fist' has not been developed to its fullest potential."