Theory: in most technical disagreements, both sides are correct.

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Mar 28, 2020.

  1. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    Do you do a side kick with the heel or with the blade of the foot?
    Do you hook punch with a horizontal or vertical fist?
    Do you punch straight or do you twist your fist over at the moment of impact?

    For each of those questions, there are three possible answers: A, B, or "depends". In my opinion, all three answers are correct, depending on the fighter, the teacher, and the application.

    It boils down to a couple of things: repetition and confidence. There are generally pros and cons to both approaches in one of these debates. There are targets or applications that favor one option over the other. So to say one is intrinsically correct or incorrect is inaccurate.

    However, which one is "correct" may vary from school to school, or style to style. The version you've trained over and over again is generally going to be the better version of a technique. The version you have more confidence in is one you'll feel more comfortable using when you need to. Or, if you've had the time to train both and drill for when you'd use the different versions, then "depends on the situation" becomes the more correct answer. That doesn't mean it's the right answer to give to someone who hasn't had the time to train both.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2017
    Messages:
    7,131
    Likes Received:
    1,047
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    agree, though by extension you can apply that to techniques outside those in ma, if it works because your good at it, its as good as any formal technique

    but by extension if it doesn't work, if it doesn't work, its no better than wild punching with your eyes shut, which means it might work once in a while, that though straight in to drop bears pet topic of provability and how do you test any given technique ?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    16,581
    Likes Received:
    3,930
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    No. "It depends" should be the correct answer, always. The ONLY time one specific exact movement is "correct" is in a very specific exact circumstance. It's fine to teach that at a given point in a form the sidekick should be performed to a specific height, contacting with a specific surface to a specific target. But any school that teaches that movement as always being correct is wrong.
    The answer is "it depends".
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,559
    Likes Received:
    4,534
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Exept when there is no evidence to support one application. Or the evidence is plain mumbo jumbo.

    Which separates different but equally valid approaches. From a fact vs fantasy debate.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,594
    Likes Received:
    2,159
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    From a wrestler's point of view, a hook punch can be the initial stage of the head lock. You use your forearm to hit on the back of your opponent's head, after you have knocked him out half way, you then follow up with a head lock and throw him.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  6. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    What does any of that have to do with what I'm talking about? You have boxers who debate between the proper orientation to use for a hook punch. Unless suddenly boxers don't count as qualified martial artists because you're trying to derail another discussion brought up by a TMA guy.

    So is that done with a vertical or horizontal fist?
     
  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,559
    Likes Received:
    4,534
    Trophy Points:
    308
    If you don't have a reliable method of telling fantasy from reality then your OPs premise no longer works.

    So what you are talking about is good. Providing you have the basic fundamentals in place first.

    So say two successful boxers discussing their own take on proper orientation of a hook punch is different to two boxers and you having that discussion.

    Because we don't know if you can throw a punch effectively or not.
     
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,559
    Likes Received:
    4,534
    Trophy Points:
    308
    And by the way for me. If the hook is close range it will be vertical and as it gets more rangey it will start to turn over untill I can even go thumb down.

    That way I can chase the guy a bit if his head moves without having to change my initial set up.

    And I think this creates a tiny bit less time for people to be able to pick the angle of my punch.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Purple Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2019
    Messages:
    300
    Likes Received:
    247
    Trophy Points:
    198
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The opening 3 questions of this thread highlight minor physical variations: Heel or blade, vert. or horiz., twist or no twist, though the last two seem the same thing? - vert. punch = no twist; horiz. punch = twist. Anyway, Dirty Dog is right on the specific application being what determines the appropriateness of the variation.

    For example, a side kick with the heel is good if the target is the spleen or liver, where the heel can dig in and penetrate that large area of soft tissue. I happened to watch a Benny Urquedez highlight video on you tube a few days ago and saw him drop several guys (TKO'd) with a spinning side/back kick, his heel digging deep. That just HAD to hurt.

    But going for a smaller, harder target like the front of the knee, where the heel could miss or glance off, a blade kick would be a better option. Vertical punches are great for quick attacks and then snapping back to block or cover a potential counter. But if the opponent is off balance, wounded, or just plain slow and open, a nice thrusting twist punch would make a good finishing attack.

    While a particular style may emphasize one or the other (which I think is fine as it reflects the style's overall approach), one should not feel inhibited to use a variation that best fits the situation. For an experienced martial artist, adapting, tweaking or varying a technique to go with a flowing situation should be the norm. Form should never hinder successful function.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,594
    Likes Received:
    2,159
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Horizontal fist.

    If you use

    - horizontal fist, you will use the inside edge bone (good idea),
    - vertical fist, you will use the inside arm blood vessel (bad idea),

    to hit on the back of your opponent's head.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,594
    Likes Received:
    2,159
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You may only think about "point meet point" such as:

    - fist meet face,
    - foot meet body.

    Sometime your arm will meet with your opponent's arm (line meet line). Sometime your body will meet your opponent's body (space meet space).

    In MA, point meet point < line meet line < space meet space

    Examples of space meet space (body hit body). This way, your whole body can be considered as weapon.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2020
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    23,604
    Likes Received:
    6,939
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    It’s my experience that many systems (as defined by the folks teaching them) have some specific right/wrong points. I think most instructors relax those as students progress.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    Out of curiosity, what's your professional record in the UFC?
     
  14. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    Depends on the technique or concept. A lot of things I get less relaxed as students progress. I expect students to be building good habits.
     
  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,559
    Likes Received:
    4,534
    Trophy Points:
    308
    When is the last time you used a hook punch in self defense?
     
  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    8,594
    Likes Received:
    2,159
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    This question is very difficult to be answered.

    If someone says:

    - I have used hook punch and knocked down many challengers in the past, you will then ask that person to provide video proof. 99.9% of the time, those videos are not available.
    - I have never used hook punch in self-defense, you may look down on that person.

    It's like to ask, "How many people have you killed so far?" There is no way that you will get any answer on question like this.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    You're evading the question. Is it because you've not got a record in the UFC?
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    18,559
    Likes Received:
    4,534
    Trophy Points:
    308
    I don't have a ufc record. Which is a good think I don't make money selling ufc to people.

    I leave that to people with records.
     
  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages:
    4,951
    Likes Received:
    1,194
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Lakewood, WA
    So then you're just playing a fantasy. You don't actually know if your stuff works.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    23,604
    Likes Received:
    6,939
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    It’s what defines “good” that usually relaxes. So, while a technique may be taught with, say, a hanmi stance, and that may be required of beginners, for advanced students what matters is that whether their foot placement provides what they need in transition. So, if they replace the hanmi with a fighting stance, and it works well, then all is good. Better yet if they can explain the gain-loss of the change.123
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

Share This Page