The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence
Pure fencing, yes if they have something they can use as a weapon. But otherwise a lot of the skills dont carry over. They'll be as good as any other in shape person their age. That said, about half the fencers i know also practice some form of martial art, and most of the remainders were interested in learning. And it absolutely makes it easier to teach ma
 

hoshin1600

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That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight
what i am saying has a little more subtlety to it. i didnt say people who ARE on a diet. what i meant, ill say it in different words this time is...look at what they eat. i may say i want to lose weight but if i go to Mcdonalds all the time, i dont REALLY want to lose weight. the same is true of martial arts. i have found most people are more interested in an activity where the effort is minimal and they are able to show up for work the next day and have all their friends and co workers believe they are a bad a$$ because they do karate. they want the image not the actual result from hard work.
 

jobo

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what i am saying has a little more subtlety to it. i didnt say people who ARE on a diet. what i meant, ill say it in different words this time is...look at what they eat. i may say i want to lose weight but if i go to Mcdonalds all the time, i dont REALLY want to lose weight. the same is true of martial arts. i have found most people are more interested in an activity where the effort is minimal and they are able to show up for work the next day and have all their friends and co workers believe they are a bad a$$ because they do karate. they want the image not the actual result from hard work.
But then being on a diet, is the same as signing up for an art, lots of people say they are going to do both, but attending is the same as actually going on a calorie control diet, plus you can eat at McDonald's a lot and still lose weight, so that doesn't make any sense at all.

But your under lying point, is that failures are due to them failing to put the effort in, rather than the art being totally unsuitable for self defence, which is more likely, non of which changes my point, that they want to learn to fight better or they wouldn't be there at all
 

Gerry Seymour

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I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was
Yeah, I'm often amazed by how hard it is to get some groups to follow directions when they first get together.
 

Gerry Seymour

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So for instance, I sit on a bench, holding a loop on each hand, put my foot in the rope, and kick my leg straight, whilst pulling with my arms, and try and break the rope, as my arms get stronger, it's more of a work out for my leg, as my leg gets stronger it's more of a work out for my arms, continue for ever or until I break the rope
It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?
 

Gerry Seymour

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That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight, if they do or not and that people who swing a kettle bell about want to be fitter, if they achieve it or not, so people who learn a fighting art, most certainly want to be better a fighting, if they ever manage that it not.

If they don't achieve that, it could well be down to not putting enough effort in or more likely they buy in to some tma, bull, and are destined to fail from the beginning,as the art is intrinsically flawed and no amount of effort is going to rescue it. that's if effort is even required, beyond say the effort needed to do a slow dance
I'd say a closer comparison (for my earlier point) is whether their diet supports the notion they want to lose weight. If someone starts a diet that has some evidence, history, or even hype of being useful for weight loss, they probably are trying to lose weight (unless there's another thing they use that diet for). If they are on the "dine out at night, wherever you want" diet, and aren't following any guideline that they believe to be useful for weight loss, it's unlikely they intend to lose weight.
 

MetalBoar

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It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?
While I haven't tried anything exactly like Jobo is describing I expect it's pretty effective for someone who has the grit to cope with the discomfort and enough body awareness to figure out how to use this technique to get a full body workout. I know from my own experience that timed static holds can be very effective at improving strength - no movement necessary - and I've seen nothing in the scientific literature to contradict this.

I find static holds particularly useful when working with people who have a very hard time maintaining reasonable form or when people have physical problems that limit their safe range of motion. For example, if someone has low back issues that prohibit a lot of standard exercises that might strengthen the multifidus, it's frequently possible to pin the weight stack on a spinal extension machine such that the person only has to lift the weight a short distance within their comfort zone and then hold it as long as they can. In a very few workouts I find that their strength and thus spinal stability will improve to the point that they can tolerate a full range of motion. Similarly, those who have a very weak core will frequently do all they can to avoid actually working the muscles that need it the most and it's much harder to cheat on form and engage inappropriate musculature when you aren't moving at all. Having worked as a strength trainer, the main problem I find is that many people find static holds extremely uncomfortable and don't want to do them.
 

JR 137

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Having worked as a strength trainer, the main problem I find is that many people find static holds extremely uncomfortable and don't want to do them.
Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring. People want to move. Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.

People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving. Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session? And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial. Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock. I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life. I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that. It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.

On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball. Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it. They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position. That one sucked and was great at the same time. Time moves extra slow with that one.
 

hoshin1600

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It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.
The problem is that you don't have ADD otherwise you would have noticed the little dots on the floor...oh look, there is a staple on the floor...I wonder how it got there ..someone could have stepped on it..I hate being in bare feet, I'm surprised I like karate because you go barefoot all the time....I really enjoy karate...hey look there are little dots on the floor, and there is a staple over there.
 

Flying Crane

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We were doing standing pole meditation for over 45 minutes. Five of us in a garage, nobody talking, arms and legs shaking, listening to the cooking timer tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick...
 

JR 137

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The problem is that you don't have ADD otherwise you would have noticed the little dots on the floor...oh look, there is a staple on the floor...I wonder how it got there ..someone could have stepped on it..I hate being in bare feet, I'm surprised I like karate because you go barefoot all the time....I really enjoy karate...hey look there are little dots on the floor, and there is a staple over there.
Now that you put it that way, maybe I do have ADD. Stuff like that goes through my head during times like those. Along with calling myself every swear word in the book because I want to stop the exercise.

A good friend of mine taught me Turkish Getups. All I could think of while doing them was “stop being such a F’in p-word.” “This is why I’m such a fat POS” and “I really hate the M-F’er. I’d kick his ***, but I’ve got to do more of these to have a chance.”

That’s all interrupted by “those are pretty cool sneakers. I’ve got to get a new pair because my feet are starting to hurt. And my shoes are starting to smell. I wonder if anyone else can smell them. Why does the floor I’m laying down on smell? Did someone step in doo-doo and stand here? Remember when I stepped in doo-doo and tracked it into Paulie’s house? His mother was pissed. I wonder if she still works with those youth offenders. Those guys are pretty messed up. I wouldn’t do that job for any amount of money. I wonder if I’m getting a raise this year. Last year’s raise sucked. Hopefully I get enough to buy a new car. I hate driving an suv. Damn kids. If it weren’t for them, I’d be driving a coupe. Yeah, but they’re worth it. I miss my little girls. Oh yeah, I’m going to kill Pat for showing me these Getups. Stop being such a p-word and get through it...”

Is that ADD or just psychosis? Or both?
 

Hudson69

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I feel that most systems offer something but ultimately it is up to how it is presented, practiced and how the student chooses to absorb it. If you teach it like it is simply a way to stay healthy and the combative/defensive aspect does not appear and even if it is, is it realistic? From the student perspective you can also have a student who is studying it just to study it and regardless of how it is presented they would not be likely to use it effectively as a form of defense. You can also have someone who can use tai chi in the park to wreak havoc.

I have had the opportunity to experience a wide variety of systems. Two that come off as less than stellar (to me) are Budo Taijutsu and PPCT. My X-Kan was always instructed as being "way to dangerous" to spar with (okay :meh:) and (again based off of my experience) PPCT always seemed to breeze over the combative(s) portion so that the pressure point portion of the system could be over emphasized.

So to reiterate I think Wing Chun is great and it can be a great combat system but there are a lot of factors that take into account beyond just the system. I think MMA is great but in a practical, outside the ring situation maybe no so much.
 

jobo

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It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?
Yes your missing something, possibly from my description, isometric increase strength for about 15 degrees each side of the point of hold,but increase muscle size over the whole muscle, so you Then have the potential to be stronger at all angles, but that's not fundamentally what I'm trying to describe, I start with my arms tucked up close
Tp to my body and my leg tucked up toWards my chest, and then force the leg outwards whilst resisting with my arms, which are dragged forwards as my leg straightens, so not quite the full range of motion but not far off, and very much in the useful , drag someone over zone, I do this very slowly so there is a Significant contraction right through the range in moving, mean while my core is in a isometric contraction Durring the whole exercise, so you get an additional benefit from that,

It's really my lazy day to hOt to do much exercise, excersise, I'm also Fond of throwing the rope over a branch, turning my body so it's swinging horizontal to the ground, and then doing pull ups, which also hits the Core very hard, but doesn't have a leg components.
 
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jobo

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We were doing standing pole meditation for over 45 minutes. Five of us in a garage, nobody talking, arms and legs shaking, listening to the cooking timer tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick...
This needs music, !!!!!
 

jobo

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Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring. People want to move. Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.

People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving. Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session? And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial. Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock. I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life. I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that. It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.

On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball. Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it. They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position. That one sucked and was great at the same time. Time moves extra slow with that one.
Holds are hard, that's because they are effective, but just doing holds is one dimentional, so an entire session of holds isn't possibly the best work out, isokinetic, Or yielding isometric,moves on thE other hand are both extremely effective and have movement,

I'm not a big fan of planks, to be honest, you may as well do some forearm raises whilst your down there, but the issue of progressive overload applies, once your up in the 2,3,5 minute range it's to easy,,,,,,, make it more difficult and get it down to the one min mark again, getting Someone to sit in the small of your back works well, or plank with just you head and your feet, or go and do L sits instead
 
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Ironbear24

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I ignored the article completely because that dead horse has been atomized already.
 

MetalBoar

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Tp to my body and my leg tucked up toWards my chest, and then force the leg outwards whilst resisting with my arms, which are dragged forwards as my leg straightens, so not quite the full range of motion but not far off, and very much in the useful , drag someone over zone, I do this very slowly so there is a Significant contraction right through the range in moving, mean while my core is in a isometric contraction Durring the whole exercise, so you get an additional benefit from that,

It's really my lazy day to hOt to do much exercise, excersise, I'm also Fond of throwing the rope over a branch, turning my body so it's swinging horizontal to the ground, and then doing pull ups, which also hits the Core very hard, but doesn't have a leg components.
Interesting approach, I like it! I didn't fully get what you were doing from your original post but this makes it clear. I may have to give this a try - I really like what I'm doing at present but I don't like the amount of equipment it requires.

I'm not a big fan of planks, to be honest, you may as well do some forearm raises whilst your down there, but the issue of progressive overload applies, once your up in the 2,3,5 minute range it's to easy,,,,,,, make it more difficult and get it down to the one min mark again, getting Someone to sit in the small of your back works well, or plank with just you head and your feet, or go and do L sits instead
I completely agree with this - I feel that for strength training, if you can perform an exercise for 90 seconds or more it's definitely time to increase the resistance, and even shorter duration/higher load may be called for in some instances.
 

Martial D

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I feel that most systems offer something but ultimately it is up to how it is presented, practiced and how the student chooses to absorb it. If you teach it like it is simply a way to stay healthy and the combative/defensive aspect does not appear and even if it is, is it realistic? From the student perspective you can also have a student who is studying it just to study it and regardless of how it is presented they would not be likely to use it effectively as a form of defense. You can also have someone who can use tai chi in the park to wreak havoc.

I have had the opportunity to experience a wide variety of systems. Two that come off as less than stellar (to me) are Budo Taijutsu and PPCT. My X-Kan was always instructed as being "way to dangerous" to spar with (okay :meh:) and (again based off of my experience) PPCT always seemed to breeze over the combative(s) portion so that the pressure point portion of the system could be over emphasized.

So to reiterate I think Wing Chun is great and it can be a great combat system but there are a lot of factors that take into account beyond just the system. I think MMA is great but in a practical, outside the ring situation maybe no so much.
Specifically, what makes MMA less than ideal outside of a ring when compared to classical Wing Chun? This is of particular interest to me as a long time WC guy that trains in MMA now.
 

Gerry Seymour

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Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring. People want to move. Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.

People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving. Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session? And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial. Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock. I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life. I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that. It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.

On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball. Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it. They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position. That one sucked and was great at the same time. Time moves extra slow with that one.
You're one of the ones I'd look to for an informed answer on this. I seem to remember reading about results of partial-motion exercises (doing only part of a bench press, for instance - the part that's easiest to do), and that it didn't produce strength across the full range of the exercise, as doing the full-range exercise would do. The article I remember was something preliminary - is there more complete information on that now?
 

Gerry Seymour

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Now that you put it that way, maybe I do have ADD. Stuff like that goes through my head during times like those. Along with calling myself every swear word in the book because I want to stop the exercise.

A good friend of mine taught me Turkish Getups. All I could think of while doing them was “stop being such a F’in p-word.” “This is why I’m such a fat POS” and “I really hate the M-F’er. I’d kick his ***, but I’ve got to do more of these to have a chance.”

That’s all interrupted by “those are pretty cool sneakers. I’ve got to get a new pair because my feet are starting to hurt. And my shoes are starting to smell. I wonder if anyone else can smell them. Why does the floor I’m laying down on smell? Did someone step in doo-doo and stand here? Remember when I stepped in doo-doo and tracked it into Paulie’s house? His mother was pissed. I wonder if she still works with those youth offenders. Those guys are pretty messed up. I wouldn’t do that job for any amount of money. I wonder if I’m getting a raise this year. Last year’s raise sucked. Hopefully I get enough to buy a new car. I hate driving an suv. Damn kids. If it weren’t for them, I’d be driving a coupe. Yeah, but they’re worth it. I miss my little girls. Oh yeah, I’m going to kill Pat for showing me these Getups. Stop being such a p-word and get through it...”

Is that ADD or just psychosis? Or both?
If it's in your head, it's ADD. If you say it out loud, it's schizophrenia.
 

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