The problem with "traditional" martial arts.

[Flying Crane]

You didn't bother to read my entire comment. I said....... "simply not going to work well against someone doing an art equally well taught and performed, but that is more suitable to the circumstance." And ring competition is certainly going to be one circumstance when a well-taught Tai Chi guy is not going to do well against a well-taught Muay Thai guy! Here's another.....in a full-out fight with weapons, a well-taught BJJ guy is simply not going to fare well against a equally well-taught Kali Ilustrisimo guy! Here's another....a well-taught kickboxer is simply not going to fare well against a well-taught judo/jiu jitsu guy in a tight space that makes striking difficult.

You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:

“ All martial arts are certainly not created equal! There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”

Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer. Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.

 

[jobo]

I think part of the issue is comparing the more time-intensive study of decades ago with the 2-4 hours in the dojo most hobbyists give today. It's not really feasible to teach MA and have fitness classes in that amount of time. I do more than most instructors I know, and less than I'd do if I had students 5-10 hours a week. So, the fitness aspect remains important, but ceases to be as much a part of the training. At most schools (including most of my training through the years), fitness is only found in the warm-up (usually less than 10 minutes) and however hard you work in class.

I'm not sure there's a really good answer to this. My "warm up" takes about 10-15 minutes each class if I do the whole thing. I can do that (and could maybe do a touch more) because I have 90-minute classes.

Strength training which isn't perhaps all that would be recommended takes only a few mins or your time, but yes, the problem is emdemic, people are doing it as short cut to self defence aRe not likely to respond well to being told to invest another few hours a week in fitness training if they want it to be effective most of the time, they go and one something that promises more for less effort, that seems to be the modern world

 

[jobo]

You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:

“ All martial arts are certainly not created equal! There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”

Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer. Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.

There's a larger question which is, if not fighting, ring or otherwise then how do you measure their usefulness,

I'm the contract of this thread, where it's ring fighter beating up cma, fighters then yes up its the only useful measure

 

[KPM]

You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:

“ All martial arts are certainly not created equal! There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”

Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer. Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.

Well, you certainly have a track record here of trying to twist things and turn it into an argument. Like that other time you insisted that I had said something I hadn't!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Strength training which isn't perhaps all that would be recommended takes only a few mins or your time, but yes, the problem is emdemic, people are doing it as short cut to self defence aRe not likely to respond well to being told to invest another few hours a week in fitness training if they want it to be effective most of the time, they go and one something that promises more for less effort, that seems to be the modern world

Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.), so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.

 

[hoshin1600]

There's a larger question which is, if not fighting, ring or otherwise then how do you measure their usefulness,

i would think this would be self evident. the usefulness of any endeavor is whether or not it brings the participant to the intended goal. what was the participant trying to achieve and was the endeavor useful in getting the participant to that goal?

 

[Martial D]

You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:

“ All martial arts are certainly not created equal! There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”

Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer. Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.

Do you have a better yardstick? It seems to me the 'ya but in the street...' is this nebulous untestable standard that has been fallen back on time after time when their **** doesn't work 1 v 1 in a ring against someone that knows how to fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, you certainly have a track record here of trying to twist things and turn it into an argument. Like that other time you insisted that I had said something I hadn't!

No Keith, I am not. Communication is about what the receiver hears and receives. If there is a misunderstanding, then the sender (that would be you, in this case) has the right and obligation to clarify your meaning, which you did. I was then pointing out to you why I took your message to be something that was apparently other than you intended. What you said, coupled with the context of many people on these very forums wanting to compare all methods agains MMA or some other full contact competition genre, and well there I was, thinking you said something that you are now telling me was not your intend message. I’ll take your word for it. You, in turn, might see an opportunity to be more careful about how you express yourself in the future, if you want people to understand your meaning.

This is called “discussion” and sometimes even “debate”.

It does not mean anyone is out to get you. Even when there is disagreement.

 

[MetalBoar]

Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.), so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.

In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.

Class time is another big issue. I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training. I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.

 

[Flying Crane]

Error

 

[Flying Crane]

This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?

In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.

In Aikido (other than Tomiki Aikido), live sparring is not generally part of the practice. For those who believe that sparring is important, does that mean all the instructors in the Aikikai are bad teachers?

In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?

I'm curious as to your thoughts.

I wanted to comment further on this.

Specifically regarding forms, it is my opinion that, while specific forms are often identified with particular systems, they do not necessarily create the system.

Forms are training tools, and I think a mistake that a lot of people make is in viewing them as a product. Forms were never meant for performance or to be something to be done for their own sake. Being able to “do the form” was never the reason for training. If they were well designed by whoever invented them, then they are meant to train and drill the fundamental principles upon which the system is built, through sequences of movement and specific techniques and combinations that illustrate and ingrain those principles, and provide EXAMPLES of combative solutions. I highlighted the word examples because I believe that is what they are, and not solutions that MUST be mastered as part of a curriculum. What is in the forms could and should have valuable direct application, but one’s mileage will vary. Forms really ought to be helping the student develop an understanding of how to move and how to engage the body and how to maintain good technical structure while moving and changing and executing techniques. They should also help broaden a student’s perspective of what is possible, while not confining a student’s toolbox to just what is in the form.

As such, forms are just one of many tools that ought to reside in ones training toolbox, if you are training a system that includes forms. There is room for other tools as well, like interactive drills, sparring, heavybag work, basics, etc. Forms should not be the only tool in your toolbox.

Many Chinese systems contain a large number of forms, sometimes dozens. I believe the original lineage of Choy Lay Fut includes what I have seen referred to as “a blue billion” forms. The system was built upon three other systems, and I believe had new forms created as well. It’s generally far far more than a person with any other life to speak of can hope to learn, much less gain mastery from.

But you don’t have to. I believe nobody learns them all. There is another lineage of a Choy Lay Fut that has far fewer forms, and they do quite well.

As a tool, you don’t need all of them to develop your skills. And if you really grasp and understand the important concepts after only learning a smaller number of forms, then in my opinion the forms have done their job and you do not need more of them. They are superfluous. Likewise I feel that if you have learned a solid...oh...half a dozen or so and you still don’t “get it”, then learning another half dozen probably is not going to help you much. It just isn’t working for you.

I feel that if you can come up with other training methods that teach you what the forms are intended to teach, then sure, you could ditch the forms altogether and you would still be practicing the same style. You have altered the curriculum significantly and some people will object to that and some people will insist that you are NOT doing the same system, but so what? It is built on the same foundation, from the same source, it is the same system. You have just established a new lineage, I guess.

My Sifu was featured in an Inside Kung-Fu magazine from 1970 or so. I’ve read the article and noted how he was critical of people teaching the system while having only learned some of the forms. He felt they didn’t know the complete system and were unqualified to teach.

While I was training with him, one thing he would say to us was: you don’t need to learn all these forms; you don’t need them all. I guess his position on this has changed.

It is my oppinin that if you have learned them, they are valuable to have, but If you do not learn them, you are not missing anything.

So i can’t really comment for other systems and other people how they feel about the forms or other training methods defining the system, but I feel there is potentially a lot of room to alter those methods and still be training the system.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.), so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.

Haven't read everything yet, so my apologies if this has been addressed. There is a toom of bodyweight or basic dumbbell exercises you can do, and if i remember right, your CPS or either 60 or 90 minutes? If so, you could offer 30-60 minutes of workout friendsan beforehand, and encourage people to show for that... if they do, great. If not, you get a free workout for yourself

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.

Class time is another big issue. I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training. I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.

If I even had my own space and enough students to pay for it, I'd be able to pick up enough kettlebells to add some reasonable strength training to the class. And maybe install some cleats on the walls at reasonable height for some grip/pull-up exercises, too. It doesn't take a ton of money to do something useful, but it would take some additional training to learn to teach kettlebell exercises properly.

As for the additional wear and tear - what I've always said to students is that if adding what we do in class is too much, you have to make a choice. I've actually allowed students to opt out of the "warm-up" for a class because they'd already done a lot of exercise that week, but it's easier for them to simply leave something else out if they know they're going to get some strength training with every class. Of course, for the other 98% of students, the additional strength training isn't too much - it's still less than they are capable of.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I wanted to comment further on this.

Specifically regarding forms, it is my opinion that, while specific forms are often identified with particular systems, they do not necessarily create the system.

Forms are training tools, and I think a mistake that a lot of people make is in viewing them as a product. Forms were never meant for performance or to be something to be done for their own sake. Being able to “do the form” was never the reason for training. If they were well designed by whoever invented them, then they are meant to train and drill the fundamental principles upon which the system is built, through sequences of movement and specific techniques and combinations that illustrate and ingrain those principles, and provide EXAMPLES of combative solutions. I highlighted the word examples because I believe that is what they are, and not solutions that MUST be mastered as part of a curriculum. What is in the forms could and should have valuable direct application, but one’s mileage will vary. Forms really ought to be helping the student develop an understanding of how to move and how to engage the body and how to maintain good technical structure while moving and changing and executing techniques. They should also help broaden a student’s perspective of what is possible, while not confining a student’s toolbox to just what is in the form.

As such, forms are just one of many tools that ought to reside in ones training toolbox, if you are training a system that includes forms. There is room for other tools as well, like interactive drills, sparring, heavybag work, basics, etc. Forms should not be the only tool in your toolbox.

Many Chinese systems contain a large number of forms, sometimes dozens. I believe the original lineage of Choy Lay Fut includes what I have seen referred to as “a blue billion” forms. The system was built upon three other systems, and I believe had new forms created as well. It’s generally far far more than a person with any other life to speak of can hope to learn, much less gain mastery from.

But you don’t have to. I believe nobody learns them all. There is another lineage of a Choy Lay Fut that has far fewer forms, and they do quite well.

As a tool, you don’t need all of them to develop your skills. And if you really grasp and understand the important concepts after only learning a smaller number of forms, then in my opinion the forms have done their job and you do not need more of them. They are superfluous. Likewise I feel that if you have learned a solid...oh...half a dozen or so and you still don’t “get it”, then learning another half dozen probably is not going to help you much. It just isn’t working for you.

I feel that if you can come up with other training methods that teach you what the forms are intended to teach, then sure, you could ditch the forms altogether and you would still be practicing the same style. You have altered the curriculum significantly and some people will object to that and some people will insist that you are NOT doing the same system, but so what? It is built on the same foundation, from the same source, it is the same system. You have just established a new lineage, I guess.

My Sifu was featured in an Inside Kung-Fu magazine from 1970 or so. I’ve read the article and noted how he was critical of people teaching the system while having only learned some of the forms. He felt they didn’t know the complete system and were unqualified to teach.

While I was training with him, one thing he would say to us was: you don’t need to learn all these forms; you don’t need them all. I guess his position on this has changed.

It is my oppinin that if you have learned them, they are valuable to have, but If you do not learn them, you are not missing anything.

So i can’t really comment for other systems and other people how they feel about the forms or other training methods defining the system, but I feel there is potentially a lot of room to alter those methods and still be training the system.

Michael, you're singing my tune here, man. I don't believe forms (nor the lack thereof) are inherent to a style/system. I firmly believe any style can be taught entirely without them, and that any style (with the right instructor, who can make proper use of them) could include forms. I take an even more basic view (if that's the right term) of forms: I believe they are best used to help the body get used to (and work on) basic movement. Within the forms, there will be some basic principles of the given system, but likely not all of them. Some things will be over-emphasized, or even exaggerated. And I believe forms are best used (after they've been learned to some reasonable degree) by playing with them, replacing movements and seeing what happens, changing directions, stance, even balance and seeing what that changes in the form...then considering what that would change with a partner/opponent present.

Or, just use them for exercise and moving meditation. Just don't get too wrapped up in their importance. They matter, but they are not the system.

 

[MetalBoar]

Getting back to the original post, the article has some good points. I think you get what you train for (at best) and if you focus on forms without a lot of work to contextualize them to their applications for fighting you're likely to get nice looking forms and not much else. I think that as systems get older they can build up cruft that continues to be taught because it's part of the curriculum. Maybe nobody really uses these techniques and maybe nobody really understands their use anymore, which doesn't mean that it was necessarily useless to whoever added it. There's probably a lot more risk of this with systems that don't compete or "pressure test".

I do think that forms, done well, can be one way to provide a solid foundation in proper structure, body alignment, etc. and combined with proper drills can help to overcome some of the limitations inherent to sparring. They can be a useful tool, but don't stand alone in my opinion. I think drills that progress in sophistication and intensity leading to sparring are another important component. If you don't spar at all I think you need some really good drills to teach the lessons that come with sparring and I've never seen this done with complete success. I think that sparring exclusively with practitioners of your own art can lead to a lot of blind spots that are hard to overcome by other methods. Then to bring things full circle, if you spar a lot with practitioners of your own and other styles you can still end up with blind spots relating to those things that can't be allowed in sparring.

Finally, as I said earlier, you get what you train for. If your art was developed with a focus on applying techniques to opponents in medieval armor and it hasn't been modernized, it's likely to give up some efficiency in modern self defense or ring sports because it was optimized for a different purpose. Similarly, if you train exclusively for competitive arts, you gain a lot of advantages from spending your time applying your techniques against resisting opponents - on the other hand, being optimized for a rule set there's a real risk that you'll develop bad habits related to those rules - not protecting the head (some Kyokushin, TKD) not protecting or attacking the groin (anyone always in a cup) not taking knives into consideration (everyone that doesn't use knives), etc.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Haven't read everything yet, so my apologies if this has been addressed. There is a toom of bodyweight or basic dumbbell exercises you can do, and if i remember right, your CPS or either 60 or 90 minutes? If so, you could offer 30-60 minutes of workout friendsan beforehand, and encourage people to show for that... if they do, great. If not, you get a free workout for yourself

Part of it is the cost of space. My current location, I'd have to "add a class", and they might or might not charge for it. If they didn't, they'd open it to other attendees. The new location we're trying to move (back) to would charge us for that time.

And there's still the cost of dumbbells, in a space where I don't control their use. They're less expensive than kettlebells, but also (IMO) a bit less useful for some of what I'd want to work on (specifically joint stability muscle development). As for bodyweight exercises, there are only so many of those that only require a floor (push-ups of all sorts, lunges, burpees, crunches and planks, etc.), I do use those and they start to lose their efficacy after a while, unless you do increasing numbers of them. Someone doing 25 push-ups (or any bodyweight exercise) per class stops developing any new strength pretty soon after being able to do those 25. That's why I'd love to have weights available.

 

[MetalBoar]

If I even had my own space and enough students to pay for it, I'd be able to pick up enough kettlebells to add some reasonable strength training to the class. And maybe install some cleats on the walls at reasonable height for some grip/pull-up exercises, too. It doesn't take a ton of money to do something useful, but it would take some additional training to learn to teach kettlebell exercises properly.

As for the additional wear and tear - what I've always said to students is that if adding what we do in class is too much, you have to make a choice. I've actually allowed students to opt out of the "warm-up" for a class because they'd already done a lot of exercise that week, but it's easier for them to simply leave something else out if they know they're going to get some strength training with every class. Of course, for the other 98% of students, the additional strength training isn't too much - it's still less than they are capable of.

From a number of your posts it sounds like you're a good instructor and are doing a good job both with matching your curriculum to your students capabilities and with continuing to expand your knowledge base.

As for bodyweight exercises, there are only so many of those that only require a floor (push-ups of all sorts, lunges, burpees, crunches and planks, etc.), I do use those and they start to lose their efficacy after a while, unless you do increasing numbers of them. Someone doing 25 push-ups (or any bodyweight exercise) per class stops developing any new strength pretty soon after being able to do those 25. That's why I'd love to have weights available.

This ^^^^ is where a lot of my complaints with strength training in martial arts schools comes from - body weight exercises alone become a grind with very little benefit after you've done them for a while.

I've tried and left a number of schools that put the vast majority of their focus on fitness and not on developing skills in their art. I understand there are two reasons for this, 1) (going back to something I posted on another thread) a lot of the people actually interested in the martial element of martial arts have moved to MMA/BJJ schools and thus a lot of the remaining students in TMA are there primarily to get in shape and 2) a lot of students are so out of shape that a lot of physical conditioning may be necessary for them to be able to actually learn the art effectively.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

From a number of your posts it sounds like you're a good instructor and are doing a good job both with matching your curriculum to your students capabilities and with continuing to expand your knowledge base.

I appreciate that. I try to do well for my students.

This ^^^^ is where a lot of my complaints with strength training in martial arts schools comes from - body weight exercises alone become a grind with very little benefit after you've done them for a while.

I've tried and left a number of schools that put the vast majority of their focus on fitness and not on developing skills in their art. I understand there are two reasons for this, 1) (going back to something I posted on another thread) a lot of the people actually interested in the martial element of martial arts have moved to MMA/BJJ schools and thus a lot of the remaining students in TMA are there primarily to get in shape and 2) a lot of students are so out of shape that a lot of physical conditioning may be necessary for them to be able to actually learn the art effectively.

If it's just the first few minutes of class, I appreciate it. If a MA class goes for 30 minutes on fitness, I start to wonder why I bothered with my other fitness work. Of course, if I've not gotten to my other fitness work, I probably hate that 30 minutes.

I've heard of seminars that the first 2 hours was just to exhaust people; while there's some value to that, I'd rather be working on the material.

 

[TMA17]

In modern times, it seems to me that TMAs are less effective due to what has been said many times before which is the lack of sparing and conditioning. I would argue that the style or system does matter though. I think much of the time spent on learning forms could be better spent on conditioning and learning the basics very well if your goal is truly protecting yourself.

In 90% of most fights you see, it's either punching, kicking or ground. Knowing that, becoming proficient with learning how to punch, kick and move are vital. For ground/choked out etc, that is where good BJJ/Wrestling skills come in to play. One does not have to be a blackbetl in BJJ (I would think) to be very capable against the majority of situations you'd likely encounter on the street. In competition it would be different.

I think the style does matter to a certain extent. There are things in Wing Chun and many other systems that I just don't think are as valuable in a modern context. Certain forms had their place at one time, but saying that style or the system doesn't matter just doesn't make sense to me. The type of movements do matter. It's all movements at the end of the day though and I think focusing on becoming better at basics is more valuable than spending 10 years learning numerous forms.

 

[jobo]

i would think this would be self evident. the usefulness of any endeavor is whether or not it brings the participant to the intended goal. what was the participant trying to achieve and was the endeavor useful in getting the participant to that goal?

I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim