The Problem with Karate

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I've posted this question in hopes that I might get some legitimate feedback from the broad spectrum of BJJ or MMA people on this forum.

I've heard of (not actually seen) tapes that the Gracies use to make back in their Rio days, of them sparring "karate" guys. The Gracies would be pummeling some guy and you would hear someone in the background say, "so-and-so just realized that he has wasted 10years of his life perfecting karate." If anyone knows where I could get a copy of this/these tapes please let me know.

On to my question, why do you think that people who train in stand-up arts, historically, have such a hard time dealing with groundfighters. Is it just due to lack of exposure? Lack of conditioning? Realism, etc...?

I've been in American Kenpo for the last 5 years, our system has actually gone back through and re worked alot of our material to make reponses more realistic. I've also been working out with a Machado Blue belt to at least gain some familiarity with the possibilities.

Please know that I'm not trying to start anything up, I'm just simply asking a question so I can better myself. I know that in my Kenpo Assosciation we have spent a little extra time learning to recognize and deal with someone who tries to shoot in on your legs, but I also know that you guys spend a great deal of time practicing this stuff.

I know, I know, endless rambling... I just wanted to open the subject for discussion. Feel free to approach the situation anyway you like, just keep it somewhat respectful.

 

[ace]

But If U Limit Your Self & close the Door
To other styels Then the fact that is u
may end up in unfermilar Waters.


To be complete in Fighting U have to have
More than 1 way.

U have to be abel to strike, Wrestle
or defend aganist a Weapon.

___________________________________--------------

The Gracies in Action 1&2 Can Be found on The Net
Just Look Up Gracies in Action

 

[Aki]

Kenpo Yahoo,
You make a great point. I normally don't reply to these discussion forums but I couldn't help myself after reading yours. I think stand up people have a hard time with grapplers because most of them have lost the aspect of actual fighting. A lot of people who practice karate only know forms. You will not know how to fight just knowing forms. it is like learning a basic arm bar. You can drill the form over and over, but it is not the same when actually rolling with someone. I have trained in Okinawan Karate for 20 years now. I can honestly say that training has changed drastically (not for the better). I started Karate in Okinawa when I was 11 and 25% of the class was forms. 25% was training (conditioning, & techniques) and the remaining half was fighting. I remember my teacher saying that Forms will NOT teach you how to fight, they will make you a better fighter but they will NOT teach you how to fight!!! Now when I look at schools most of them teach forms with little or no fighting. Now this is the little microcosm of Karate. There are many other systems out there and they have different sets of issues.
I think the main problem as to why stand up people have a hard time with grapplers is because of a lack of understanding of distance. Most allow grapplers in to close, so when the grappler shoots in, the Stand up person has lost the effective striking distance and gets smothered. Muay thai practitioners used to get caught like this a lot but now many have some grappling experience and can neutralise the shoot while dispensing damage. Thats my two cents- I think you should look at other systems but be careful of being a jack of all trades master of nothing. I am over simplifying here but I see three major distances and most systems can be broken into one or two of these three. 1. Striking 2. Clinching 3. Grappling.
My opinion is if you can master two of the distances you will be a great fighter. Mastering three is pretty hard since it takes 10-20 years to truly be adept at one system. Good Luck!!!!

 

[Brother John]

I think the main problem as to why stand up people have a hard time with grapplers is because of a lack of understanding of distance.

I Think you hit the nail on the head there Aki!! 90% of the time you slip in past the elbows of even an experienced Karateka and you've dropped his odds a great deal. Most Karate moves deal their damage at arms length. Sure there's elbows, but so few Karateka put in the time to make them really effective.

Like you Yahoo, I'm happy with the amount of time that Mr. Mills and those whom he 'bounces' ideas off of (and I mean BOUNCES) have spent on the groundfighting work in the AKKI. But sometimes I still think it's just a start, I bet there's even more on the way.

I know how i'd deal with grapplers, because I have. AND I've been a grappler. So the outlook is a little different. My strengths are in stand-up/balistic fighting... but I agree that we shouldn't overlook any range of fighting.
Just some thinkin...
Your Brother
John
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

Aki has an excellent point. I would add that many martial artists are simply not accustomed to that form of fighting; most of us tend to fight people who attack us with "familiar" attacks.
The grappler's approach is certainly "unfamiliar."

If the karate person maintains a strong and stable position without raising the hips too high, he can easily move and generate a very strong counter-attack when someone shoots in to grab his legs.

 

[JDenz]

I think the problem that you guys are all missing is rhythm and toughness. Grapplers train everypractice on ground fighting getting it to the ground they fight diffrent pace stuff then Karate guys are used to. 40 percent of the attacks or more don't work on a guy focused on getting the fight to the ground, and many of us are willing to take your shot to get it on the ground where we will know we will win. Think of it this way we train takesdowns and 100 percent of the time we are facing a guy that either knows how to take us down or that knows how to sprawl and probley practices his sprawl at least 5-6 times as much as you do. There are no clases spent learning forms and or moves that won't work or haven't worked since they were back in Japan. No Offense but Kata's where pushing grass out of the way are part of are definitly outdated even if you guys do get some use out of them.

 

[yilisifu]

Why would karate people practice forms with movement that don't work? Of course those movements work!

We have two seperate concepts here. "Groundfighting" is more of a sport than anything else. The object is to take your man down and get him to submit.

Karate is different. The object is to kill a man as quickly as possible.

While a groundfighter is "wrasslin'" him on the ground, the karateist can exploit many options, not the least of which include pressing, squeezing, or striking vital points, biting, or whatever. However, in the interest of sport, this is usually not done.

If an aggressor attacks you with a knife, groundfighting is likely to come up short. I would much rather rely on karate techniques.

It reminds me of the old "boxing vs. karate" bouts of the 70's. Boxing often won. Why? Because the karate stylists were foolish enough to allow themselves to be be limited by boxing rules; no kicks below the belt, no eye gouges, not striking into the back...and they had to wear boxing gloves (which alters the striking surface of the fist).
The truth was (and is) that real karateka would have torn a boxer to shreds if they hadn't had to follow any rules. The legendary Mas Oyama toured the U.S. in the 50's and took on all comers in the ring. His opponents included boxers, wrestlers, and whoever wanted to try him out. Anyone who could remain conscious for 60 seconds would win $1,000 (which was a lot of money back then).
Nobody ever got the money. He said his toughest opponent was a pro boxer...because the guy kept maneuvering away from him and Oyama had a hard time getting close to him. He finally did, though, and knocked the guy out in a single blow.

Karate training nowadays isn't what it once was (I know; I was there in those days).

 

[Aki]

Seriously guys I think it comes down to distance and understanding it.
JDenz- I do agree rhythm and toughness is very important. But rhythm will get you nowhere without understanding how far away the person is and the effective striking distance. What makes the shoot so effective is that it takes out the effectiveness of the strike by coming in closer than its "maximum damage" range. This is why a person can usually take a decent shot coming in because the shot is not as strong as is could have been. Toughness last only so long since all it takes is one great shot from a stronger opponent. Grappling and BJJ has been great with changing and evolving its training techniqies, much better than some of the other systems.
Yilisifu- I am in partial agreement with you about grappling being sport fighting. I actually think most martial arts are sport now with the exception of some Vale Tudo. Though a lot of Karateka like to say that their system was developed to kill quickly, most of them don't know an inking of how hard that is and what it takes to be able to do it (physically not mentally). Mas Oyama was trained to kill and thats why he was able to knock almost everyone out. I DEFINTELY KNOW YOU DID NOT MEAN IT THIS WAY but if eye gouging and biting are important danger techniques why take Karate to learn that? That comment was for others who use this arguement time and again to justify their lack of training. And i did not want this good discussion to go down that road. Anyway guys I hope Kenpo Yahoo gets something out of this stream.

 

[TkdWarrior]

the problems is these days average grapplers train way much better, harder than ur average striker, they put themselves against resisting oppnt...
put a average striker against resisting oppnt on daily basis u'll get a fighter out of him which will easily deal with ur average grappler...
as aki said already forms will not make u fighter...
simple enuff to say hard to do ....
-TkdWarrior-

 

[Abbax8]

Good points all, but something I believe has been missed. Most TKD/Karate schools when they spar, put on the gloves, protectors etc.. Then they only stike to certain areas. The groin, the knees are off limits. Light contact to the head. The precautions are even understandable, a kick to the family jewels can cause a student to say enough with this. Now consider grapplers, judo, jj, bjj. Randori in judo is stand up and on the mat. Grip fighting is similar to striking, and sweeps for harai goshi or ashi barai feel like kicks. Randori intensity is between 50% and 110%, full contact against an uncooperative uki intent on slamming you to the ground, then choking, baring or crushing you. Constant training like this prepares you for a real fight. Add in self defense training with strikes and the grappler has a distinct advantage. The post about Oyama would even back me up, his style of school fought full contact, without pads, and used throws as well as strikes. Modern striking arts can be excellant, and I am in no way saying they are not. But it is the training at full contact that makes a difference between the grappler and many strikers.

Peace
Dennis

 

[yilisifu]

In a sense, that's what I meant in the last line of my post; "karate training isn't what it used to be."

Karate evolved as a supreme method of training to defend oneself and the emphasis was on learning how to dispatch your opponent(s) as quickly as possible. This demanded extremely rigorous training.

Nowadays, karate has, in many instances, degenerated into a sport form and training is much less demanding.

The confusion arises when a "sport karate" practicioner goes up against someone from another form of pugilism or grappling which is still practiced very rigorously. It only gets worse if certain "rules for safety" are followed.
Karate was never intended to be used as a form of sport which employs such rules.
While such "sportification" is certainly a lot of fun and attracts lots of students, it must be borne in mind that "sport karate" is no more like the real thing than modern "sport kendo" is like fighting with live blades....

 

[JDenz]

Okay let me say a few things. If you fight with blades you get cut and people cry. Anyone that thinks they aren't going to get cut get real you are. If someone coms at you with a knife I guarentie almost every time you will get cut. If you don't believe me watch a training session sometime or give someone off the street a training knife and see if you can disarm them without getting cut. If you get cut in the disarm that means you are bleding and hurt. It is the same thing in fighting. A wrestler, BJJ, Judo guy know they are probley going to get hit once or twice in a fight but they are willing to take that. There are not to many people that can end a fight in one shot no matter how they train. I know it happens but it isn't the norm. Not only that it is hard to hit someone square when they are trying not to get hit. They are going to wait for your attack and take you down.

 

[yilisifu]

IF the karateka is properly trained.....thn your willingness to "take his punch" is a serious error, indeed. IF he is NOT properly trained, then fine.

It's a big IF.

There's always "IF'S."

IF the karateka has a .45, then your willingness to take his "shot" is REALLY a serious error.

Your analogy regarding knife defenses is very accurate. But....are you saying that you'd be wiling to take an aggressor's slash or thrust just so you could grapple with him? If that's the case, you need to rethink your strategy...
Yes, in defending oneself against a knife, one will very likely get cut. More than once. But you don't allow that to happen just to "bait" your opponent...in fact, you do your level best NOT to get cut.

So it is in bare-handed fighting. You should try NOT to get hit. If you "allow" yourself to be hit just so you can (hopefully) apply a grappling technique.....?

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by yilisifu
IF the karateka is properly trained.....thn your willingness to "take his punch" is a serious error, indeed. IF he is NOT properly trained, then fine.

It's a big IF.

There's always "IF'S."

IF the karateka has a .45, then your willingness to take his "shot" is REALLY a serious error.

Your analogy regarding knife defenses is very accurate. But....are you saying that you'd be wiling to take an aggressor's slash or thrust just so you could grapple with him? If that's the case, you need to rethink your strategy...
Yes, in defending oneself against a knife, one will very likely get cut. More than once. But you don't allow that to happen just to "bait" your opponent...in fact, you do your level best NOT to get cut.

So it is in bare-handed fighting. You should try NOT to get hit. If you "allow" yourself to be hit just so you can (hopefully) apply a grappling technique.....?

Where I train we do groundfighting but not in the same way a bjj fighter would because we don't want to spend much time on the ground so if we go down it's do what you have to quickly and stand up, not wrestle and try to get locks on people. The chances of actually fighting someone with any grappling skill in the street would be virtually nil. In these challenge matches you are pitting someone with good stand up against someone with good ground skills. In these matches it has been shown that it is easier to take a standup guy down than it is to keep a grappler standing. Chances are there are rules in place in these matches as well. Add biting, gouging and groin strickes and see again how much more even it is. I can tell you that I would release a triangle choke rather than give the guy the ten seconds it takes for him to go out to chow down on my balls.

Just some thoughts
cheers
Sammy

 

[sammy3170]

the last post wasn't supposed to have the quote above it so don't take it as a direct response to that.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

Thank you all for your responses.

I'll try to reply to some of them later when I have more time. Thanks for keeping this serious and respectful.

How much emphasis do the various practitioners out there place on the Clinch? I've never put much stock in the idea that all fights will go to the ground, but almost every fight I've seen has gone to the clinch. Any thoughts?

 

[sammy3170]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
Thank you all for your responses.

I'll try to reply to some of them later when I have more time. Thanks for keeping this serious and respectful.

How much emphasis do the various practitioners out there place on the Clinch? I've never put much stock in the idea that all fights will go to the ground, but almost every fight I've seen has gone to the clinch. Any thoughts?

Most fights will involve some sort of wrestling whether it be standing up or on the ground but most styles deal with the standup techniques such as headlocks and bearhugs etc.

Cheers
Sammy

 

[ace]

Watch any Boxing or Kick Boxing Match.
1 will hit the other he will either bob n weve
or clinch to stop the strike
This is were Wrestling begins.

 

[JDenz]

yilisifu- I would bet ground fighting disarms and karate disarms are pretty similer. Since you are saying Oyama is one of the best Karate guys he should have been fighting the best boxers, the best kickboxers, Best Judo guys. That is like a pro MT kickboxer destroying me and claiming he is the best.
I am saying that most guys that do Judo, do BJJ, or do wrestling will always get it to the ground. All guys that do these sports/MA are all in good shape or the good ones at least. I am not saying that we eat shots on purpose just tat we will take one to get you down. I mean grappling arts are better in clinch and on the ground.

 

[yilisifu]

Yes, if it goes to the ground it is crucial that one have some skill in grappling. Many of the "older generation" of karateists also had a grappling background (usually judo) but this is no longer true nowadays.

All I was saying is that it may not be wise to allow yourself to "take his blow" so that you can get him to the ground. With some people, if he hits you once, it's over.