The Problem with Karate

[mtabone]

I am still waiting for statistics on fights. I always wanted to know how many fights end up on the ground. In all the real life fights I have been in, or seen, very few ended up on the ground, and only at the end of the fight, in like a wrestling situation. Mostly because not alot of people can grapple. I also agree training is not what it used to be, for most people no adays in Karate. Though, one can train (I am talking Adults here) any way they want to. Some don't train with "reality" in mind. They just train for different reasons. Though, some do. When I teach, I stress the application and reasoning behind each movement, because I believe it to be of paramount importance.

In real life, when someone shot to my legs one time, I just did the old reaction of putting my knee right into the persons collar bone. I ended up on the ground, but this guy had only one arm essentially. I wonder why I never see this when I watch things like the UFC?

What do you guys think. In your experence, do fights MOSTLY go to the ground, OCCASIONALLY go to the ground, or FEW AND FAR BETWEEN? Perhaps someone can create this poll in the General Martial Arts Discusion. Might be very interesting results.

Michael Tabone

 

[yilisifu]

I believe that most fights start off with a shove or a punch, then a grab, and then grappling....sometimes they make it to the ground and sometimes not. Everyone thinks they're a WWF star but most of them have no clue as to what they're doing.

Being in law enforcement, I have also had people try to "shoot" for my legs and they ended up belly-down on the ground. Every time. Those who shoved and then tried to grapple ended up the same way.

One must keep one's head; remain calm and simply apply what one has trained. If the training has been realistic, then you'll do fine.

 

[Astra]

For all the fights I've seen and gotten into - few of them actually go to the ground. If they did, the fighters were usually too drunk or lacked balance and coordination to stay upright. Though I have not seen many grapplers fight amongst eachother on the street.
Taking to the ground is not as easy as it would seem. If you train against a TKD'ist who ONLY knows how to fight in the 1st range legs) then once you get close enough then if he doesn't have additional training, you'll win easily. However, I've tried grappling against people who were competent with their elbows and knees, like Wing Chun practitioners - it's much harder to get them on the ground. Someone who knows how to use his legs, hand and elbows and knees will likely not let you take him down so easily, especially when he has been trained a little on what works and what doesn't against grapplers.
IMHO, the only Karateka or any other striking style practitioner that goes to the ground easily, is the one who has no experience in fighting grapplers.

 

[lvwhitebir]

I believe that most fights with untrained individuals go to the ground, simply because they get frustrated and just go in and tackle. Trained individuals tend to not want to go to the ground and tend to stay standing as much as possible.

One of the things I got out of the first UFC was watching the stand-up fighters fight. If one of the fighters went down a little, the other would essentially back up and let him stand instead of pressing the fight to the ground. That's why Gracie did so good. Once the fighter's got to the ground, they were uncomfortable and essentially gave up.

In all I think it's a matter of your comfort level. Most people have no problem with "wrestling". We've all done it since we were kids on the playground. Those who are trained in stand-up arts feel more comfortable standing up, avoiding going to the ground at all costs.

WhiteBirch

 

[JDenz]

If a guy is not taking you to the ground then he is not a grappler just an untrained fighter. Grapplers don't lunge unless they are getting desperate. And even as an untrained striker I think I can still do damage on the feet. I think it is easier to be compatent on the feet then it is to be good on the ground. I mean a lucky punch can knock you out but a lucky take down can only put you on the ground in most cases.

 

[bart]

Hey There,

I've heard of that video where the Gracie guy says something to the effect of "so and so just realized he wasted 10 years learning karate". I've heard the stat too that says most fights end up on the ground. I was taking a law enforcement class at one time and I asked the professor about it. He looked up the FBI stat they used and it included battlefield casualties and shooting incidents. So I don't know how accurate that statement really is in the context of a fistfight.

I worked as a bouncer and I can tell you that you don't want to ground fight in a crowd. There are cheap shotters, and your opponent's pals to deal with. While I was working that job it was back in '95, just about 2-3 years after BJJ started to hit it big in the US. I had a lot of guys shoot for my legs and they almost always ate pavement or dance floor. Also if someone doesn't know how to cover themselves when they come in, they may be able to eat the weaker punches, but if they get hit by a one-inch style punch or a short hsing-i style strike, they will pay.

I think a lot of those karateka had a hard time because they tried to play the ground fight against a "ground fighter". I always focused on escape. I didn't try to fight the guy on his turf, but rather I focused on getting past him and then back on my turf in a stand up fight. Of course this was essential because there was never just one guy, like in the UFC, but rather 2 or 3 most often. I had a couple problems here and there, but never anything I couldn't handle.

I think those karateka only wasted their time if they came to believe that ground fighting is the only fighting. Their stand up skills would probably carry them if they followed the advice of "stick with what you know". If you're not a grappler, then don't grapple.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by JDenz
I mean a lucky punch can knock you out but a lucky take down can only put you on the ground in most cases.

I just read yet another story in the news of a fight (over beer at a party in this case) where a person hit someone in the head, they fell, and died (a week later) from head injuries suffered when their head hit the ground. I always emphasize to my students that you can die from falling from the height of your own head, and that a head punch rarely causes very serious damage directly but can do so indirectly.

 

[Cliarlaoch]

In general, standing techniques are no more or less practical or useful than grappling techniques. As stated before, however, one of the primary foci of training in the martial arts for the sake of learning the art itself is the knowledge of how to fight and survive in a real fight without getting hurt oneself. A martial artist can rely on standing techniques, and if he or she is good enough, can take out his or her opponent quickly and without resorting to ground/grappling techniques and vice versa for grappling. However, I feel that if a martial artist is to be successful, he or she CANNOT rely on only one or the other. Yes, a karate practicioner should be good enough to take out his opponent quickly and probably on his feet, but to supplement and broaden that artist's skills, knowledge of groundfighting and grappling techniques is necessary. And here, I do not simply mean the sport of groundfighting or sports elements of grappling, where the goal is to pin an opponent or to make him or her tap out, but rather a focus on techniques that will stop your opponent cold or take him or her out of the fight. As always, the focus of training for the purpose of learning the martial arts (unless one is training specifically for sport) is to learn the art and learn how to apply it.

On another note, I for one would rather AVOID taking a knife or a hit in a fight, unless it was to prevent a greater hurt (ex: I would gladly take a knife wound to my hand in order to pull a knife away from my throat if someone was holding it to my neck). I'm prepared to take hits or injuries, but the best martial artists in the world are those who can emerge from a fight WITHOUT taking a hit at all. This also applies to groundfighting, not just standing arts, in that on the ground one should endeavour to avoid getting into positions that cause injury. The more you get hurt, the more you will continue to get hurt. To learn how to avoid injury and blows, one needs to train in the art seriously, learn its intricacies, and learn how to practically apply the art to all situations, or as many as possible. For this, sparring is a must, and I agree with several of the earlier comments that dojangs have erred in replacing sparring with more forms. It is only through fighting that one learns to fight. Before sparring, however, must also come the learning of the techniques. A proper standing artist, one who has learned his or her techniques properly should be able to counter whatever an opponent throws at him or her, and defeat the opponent without difficulty. That's the only difference between grappling and standing fighting styles, since both are effective if one trains properly: the skill of the artist in question. A good martial artist who recognizes the strengths and weaknesses of his art will know where he is weak and try to avoid situations that play to his weaknesses. To supplement the art, a martial artist SHOULD learn techniques from other styles that shore up his art's weaknesses, however, he should still try to maintain the strengths of his own art. In other words, don't learn something that hurts your own style.

In the end (since I know I'm rambling somewhat, here, but it's a fun topic, so I hope you'll all forgive me), a martial artist should learn how to apply her own style to as many different situations as possible through sparring and learning techniques through both forms and other forms of training, and she should also try to expand her own PERSONAL style (since everyone has a different body and way of fighting, and one shouldn't limit oneself by rigid stylistic strictures if it doesn't work for oneself) by incorporating other techinques. The only way to win a fight is to train well. It's not just about grappling or standing techniques, it's about how well you have trained in your own style and how well you have prepared yourself in your training for the practical needs you will encounter outside the dojang.

--Cliarlaoch

PS: By the way, GREAT TOPIC on this thread! Got my brain's old juices flowing! Thanks for putting it up!

 

[yilisifu]

Listen to Cliarlaoch. He's got it right!:asian:

 

[SRyuFighter]

I think that the reason why some strikers have a problem with grapplers is because they give up too easily. They will get into an armbar or whatever very quickly, and then they have very little ways to get out of it while on the ground

 

[SRyuFighter]

I think that the reason why some strikers have a problem with grapplers is because they give up too easily. They will get into an armbar or whatever very quickly, and then they have very little ways to get out of it while on the ground. I myself fought in a MMA local tournament and there were no rules just fight. When a grappler came after me i just kicked him in the face. He fell down. I was determined not to let him grab me, and he didn't. I am a pure striker. I think that there is nothing wrong with Karate. Just something wrong with some sensei's out there that don't teach practical self defense techniques because they are very very lazy. I am not trying to insult anyone by this post and I have lost to grapplers before. But normally whenever I lose it is because I did not do something properly and the grappler did. Or my opponent for that matter. There is a whole lot of hype on grappling right now because of the UFC. And that is fine but I do get tired of everybody thinking that striking is crap because some grapplers beat strikers. It's not a universal constant. That is my 2 cents.

 

[ace]

Im shoping around for my Next MMA Fight
& am willing to travel

 

[SRyuFighter]

It was like a fundraising event held for some charity. I just participated for the competition. I live in West Virginia and most MMA competitions are banned.

 

[ace]

 

[SRyuFighter]

No problem.

 

[KennethKu]

Does anyone have any link to sites regarding Mas Oyama?

 

[KennethKu]

BTW , shouldn't this thead be in the Karate section?

 

[JDenz]

No if you read the orginal post it was asking the MMA, BJJ guys why karate guys have a hard time dealing with grapplers

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by JDenz
No if you read the orginal post it was asking the MMA, BJJ guys why karate guys have a hard time dealing with grapplers

I never have.

 

[KennethKu]

If they have a hard time dealing with grapplers, that is b/c they are more Karate stylists than true Karate-ka.

Every grappler knows he will just eat a few whimpsical strikes to take you down. Once you are in his territory, he dominates.

It used to be that makiwara was compulsory. I wander how many dojo in the West bothers with it any more these days.