The Pre-Emptive Strike

[OC Kid]

I dunno about how to explain about intuition. Other than its the way I have been taught/ trained and train.
When we practice our self defense techniques its based upon one step sparring. At white/ Orange (begininng level) The instructor would tell the attacker when to attack and what to use. A person would step in say with a right over hand punch then we would defends against it. After the instructor showed us what a basic defensive technique would be.

As we go up in rank the techniques become more difficult and reactionary. Reactionary meaning we may not know when and what theyre gonna attack us with but we react off it.

Either way as long as a person is prepared (awareness) they will be able to defend themselves.
As far a preemptive yea Ive had guys in my face and for some reason after I tried I knew they wouldnt give me a way out. So I beat them to the punch.

 

[lonecoyote]

I'm for the preemptive strike but one thing about some of the tactics here bothers me... the I dont want any trouble attitude, palms forward etc. You may be guaranteeing yourself a fight. Thugs want victims, not fights and who do you think they pick to sucker punch? The guy who retreats, saying I'm sorry... I didn't mean... I don't want any trouble. While you're preparing your preemptive strike he may throw a sucker punch. You've been out suckered. I give warning, usually just one, and then go if that doesn't work, but anyone on me knows its going to be a fight. It happened to me at a car wash not long ago, a guy walks up, really strung out on something making him act really strange, and tries to get really close, makes a motion like he wants to shake hands, but aggressively. I got the feeling that if I had done the I don't want any trouble thing I would have gotten attacked, so I told him to get the f--- away from me or I'll hurt you. He backed away but he was about a half second from a blitz. My warning saved me I think.

 

[MJS]

I'm for the preemptive strike but one thing about some of the tactics here bothers me... the I dont want any trouble attitude, palms forward etc. You may be guaranteeing yourself a fight. Thugs want victims, not fights and who do you think they pick to sucker punch? The guy who retreats, saying I'm sorry... I didn't mean... I don't want any trouble. While you're preparing your preemptive strike he may throw a sucker punch. You've been out suckered. I give warning, usually just one, and then go if that doesn't work, but anyone on me knows its going to be a fight. It happened to me at a car wash not long ago, a guy walks up, really strung out on something making him act really strange, and tries to get really close, makes a motion like he wants to shake hands, but aggressively. I got the feeling that if I had done the I don't want any trouble thing I would have gotten attacked, so I told him to get the f--- away from me or I'll hurt you. He backed away but he was about a half second from a blitz. My warning saved me I think.

Like its been said before, especially in the eyes of the LEO and the courts, doing everything you can to avoid the situation before fighting is most likely your best defense. Now, I'm not saying to be a victim, but keep in mind that we live in a very sue happy world where even the bad guy may turn around and sue YOU for assault! Having your hands up is not a bad thing. You dont have to have them palms out, but even if you had them chest level, together is better than nothing. You hands are already half way up....alot closer to being able to defend your face, than if they were at your sides.

Now, in your example at the wash....granted you said that the guy seemed to be on something, but if he wasnt, saying that, could egg him on even more.

As for that sucker punch....why take your eyes off of him??? By turning your back to the person, THAT is whats opening yourself to the punch. Get a good amount of distance between you and the attacker, and you have greatly cut down on the risk of 'getting suckered'

Again, every situation is gonna be different so the defender has to use his/her best judgement.

Mike

 

[lonecoyote]

I absolutely agree with you MJS, that it is best to have your hands up in some way, as well as to not take your eyes off the potential source of trouble. And those are certainly good points about our lawsuit obsessed society (everyone wants to hit the jackpot) but what I was getting at was more about attitude. Being too defensive, too apologetic, to a lot of street thugs will set you up as a victim, and to do these things in preparation for your preemptive strike, well you just might get beat to the punch, even if you do see it coming, maybe the guy is that fast, and him punching before you do might be a direct result of your defensive not offensive attitude. As far as egging the guy on, I was fully prepared to put a hurtin on him. I'm going home to my family and if that means you don't get to that is your fault.

 

[MJS]

I absolutely agree with you MJS, that it is best to have your hands up in some way, as well as to not take your eyes off the potential source of trouble. And those are certainly good points about our lawsuit obsessed society (everyone wants to hit the jackpot) but what I was getting at was more about attitude. Being too defensive, too apologetic, to a lot of street thugs will set you up as a victim, and to do these things in preparation for your preemptive strike, well you just might get beat to the punch, even if you do see it coming, maybe the guy is that fast, and him punching before you do might be a direct result of your defensive not offensive attitude.

Thanks for the clarification. True, and I agree with you also. Sounding too much like a wimp could very well be a mistake on the defenders part.

As far as egging the guy on, I was fully prepared to put a hurtin on him. I'm going home to my family and if that means you don't get to that is your fault.

My thoughts exactly!! I look at it like this. I didnt tell anyone to attack me. I didnt tel anyone to break into my house and rob me. So, in that case, I agree...you get what you deserve!

Mike

 

[lonecoyote]

bunch of great posts on a really tricky subject. MJS, I probably don't know as much about the law as I could, and it is important, as you related in your other posts. What does the law say, for the most part, about the preemptive strike? What if someone invades say, not my house, but stuck their head in the window of my truck? In other situations, does a warning make a difference? Okay, not my obscene warning from earlier, but "leave me alone', or "get away from me" anyway, thanks for the interesting and thought provoking ideas.

 

[MJS]

bunch of great posts on a really tricky subject. MJS, I probably don't know as much about the law as I could, and it is important, as you related in your other posts. What does the law say, for the most part, about the preemptive strike? What if someone invades say, not my house, but stuck their head in the window of my truck? In other situations, does a warning make a difference? Okay, not my obscene warning from earlier, but "leave me alone', or "get away from me"

Well, I'm not a lawyer, so as for my knowledge....its probably not as up to speed as someone elses may be. I would think though, that you do need to be justified as to what you do. Keep in mind that if there are other people around, they will witness this, and they will all form their own opinion of what they saw. There was an interesting thread about that on here. C2Kenpo posted some pics. and we all formed our opinion of what was happening. It was pretty cool and just went to prove that you will get many versions.

anyway, thanks for the interesting and thought provoking ideas.

You're welcome! I thought that is was a pretty good topic too!!!

Mike

 

[OC Kid]

As far as street thugs go. I have read some articles that street thugs will pick their victem. It isnt a random you stepped on my foot or checked out my GF tushy thingy.
I do and teach my kids never turn your back on your enemy always be aware.

I teach them to stand with their feet shoulder width feet at 45 degrees and have one hand up around their head maybe scratching their nose or playing with the top button on their shirt and the other hand down protecting their privates.

I also relate stories to them like one kick boxing match I saw. A guy touched gloves (at the begining of the round) then immediately threw a spinning back kick taking his opponent out, most fighters touch gloves at the begining of the round as a sign of respect or sportsmanship, he did it to get his distance.

Cheap shot ? yes, legal? yes, sportsman like? well not in my opinion which is why the fighter should of been ready...

When in doubt at least here in SoCal.. the old addage it it better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6 definately plays out.

 

[Gary Crawford]

Years ago,I ran a Liquor store for my Dad in a black neightborhood in a town in Arkansas.Being a "white boy",the customers were always testing me in one way or another.I discovered that no matter what they said or did,I could not show fear,that was what they were looking for.I know that if I showed fear,sooner or later someone would try to rob me.I kept up a good act.They all thought I was crazy and looking for an excuse to kill one of them,so I was never robbed.I earned that reputation from two altercations,both started verbal,but ended when they entered my personal space.Both types of stratigies are good ones.Using the palms up(I don't want any trouble)tactic is usually best when confronted by a stranger,but at the same time don't take any crap either,you can try to difuse the situation without showing fear.What ever stratgy is used,always maintain a safe distance,when the attacker crosses that line,it's time to fight.The june issue of Black Belt has an excellent article on the subject(page 74)

 

[Cthulhu]

Another reason why getting into a fight is just a bad idea...

If you can 'read' the attack and strike preemptively, any witnesses who don't happen to be within earshot of any previous verbal altercation will just see you lighting the other guy up for no apparent reason.

However, if you wait for the guy to make the first aggressive movement, it may be too late.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The only thing I can say is do whatever feels best to you at the time keeping in mind the potential consequences.

Cthulhu

 

[MJS]

Reviving this thread to get input from our newer members as well as our older ones.

So, any other thoughts on the pre-emptive strike? IMHO, I feel that if the other guy is getting ready to attack, why wait until the punch is already half way to your head? While it may give the impression to the bystanders that we are being the aggressor, I feel that by doing what we can prior to it escalating to a physical confrontation, ie: "Hey man, I don't want to fight you!!" we can take away any doubt as to who the aggressor really is.

Mike

 

[Southwell]

Good point Mike, it would really have to do with the situation. Example a argument with someone over a parking space or loud mouth drunk at a hockey game[happens alot here in Canada LOL] I think I would be more able to handle the situation calmly. But if there was more than one attacker or my family was with me or you felt the odds were against you[ feeling sick,nursing a injury or you just have a really bad feeling] then I would strike first and fast to multiple targets in the true Kenpo way, LOL

 

[Jade Tigress]

I'm not sure what I would do in this situation. Since I am a relative beginner, if I felt threatened, I don't know if I would have the forethought to consider legalities. I would hope that bystanders could clearly identify I was not the aggressor in the situation. I would probably strike first before risking getting attacked. I think our intuition and picking up telegraphs, would be hightened in a real-life situation.

I was posting at the same time Mike was posting this:

While it may give the impression to the bystanders that we are being the aggressor, I feel that by doing what we can prior to it escalating to a physical confrontation, ie: "Hey man, I don't want to fight you!!" we can take away any doubt as to who the aggressor really is.

I agree. I think who the true aggressor is could be cleared up.

 

[sgtmac_46]

I'll strike first whenever the other guy shows his willingness, through word or action, to harm me and THEN places himself in a position to do so. In other words, if a loud mouth drunk tells me he's going to kick my butt, then begins closing in to a distance that he could do it, i'm going to hit him as soon as he is in range, regardless of whether or not he has done any other action to show me that he is going to assault me.

More to the point, if i'm occupying a space, and a belligerant person comes to ME, then i'll strike them first. I don't consider it wrong unless I have to go to them to do the assaulting. A person can SAY anything they want from a distance. I don't care what comes out of their mouth. If they are approaching me, it's only so they can either do me bodily harm or attempt to impose their will physically, I don't really care which.

 

[MJS]

I'll strike first whenever the other guy shows his willingness, through word or action, to harm me and THEN places himself in a position to do so. In other words, if a loud mouth drunk tells me he's going to kick my butt, then begins closing in to a distance that he could do it, i'm going to hit him as soon as he is in range, regardless of whether or not he has done any other action to show me that he is going to assault me.

More to the point, if i'm occupying a space, and a belligerant person comes to ME, then i'll strike them first. I don't consider it wrong unless I have to go to them to do the assaulting. A person can SAY anything they want from a distance. I don't care what comes out of their mouth. If they are approaching me, it's only so they can either do me bodily harm or attempt to impose their will physically, I don't really care which.

Good points on the personal space aspect. This is why, IMO, being aware of your surroundings is so important. Not much they can do from across the room, but once they start to invade that 'comfort zone' your defense should begin, ie: putting your hands up, not necessarily in a threatening manner, changing the way you're standing, etc.

Mike

 

[Nanalo74]

Last Memorial Day I was working a huge party at the nightclub. We had a lot of singers performing that night. 80's acts like The Cover Girls, TKA, Shannon, etc. for those of you into Freestyle club music.

Anyway, I was posted by the stairway leading down to the dressing rooms which was roped off. There was a guy standing near the stairs kind of blocking te way. The party promoter had asked the guy to step aside so the artists who were getting off the stage could go down. The guy starts yelling and cursing at the promoter, so I intervened. I asked the guy to step aside and he turns his ire on me.

Mind you, the guy was about 6'3", 280 lbs. I'm not small myself, but definitely no where near that big. The guy is yelling and cursing, but not moving. Now I have one singer with her entourage behind me, another singer and his entourage coming up the stairs and this guy blocking both groups from getting anywhere. At this point I got angry and said in a very firm tone, "My man, you got to move!" He responded by squaring off and throwing up his fists. I didn't even hesitate. WHAM! I caught him with a right to the jaw that knocked him out cold. This is where it gets scary.

The guys eyes roll up into his head and he goes right down the stairs. My first thought was that I'd killed him. This guy was gonna break his neck and I was going away for a looooong time. Luckily, the people making their way up the stairs tried to catch him and break his fall.

Now my logic was that I wasn't gonna let a guy that size get a shot off on me. Skill or no skill I didn't want to take that chance. However, due to my surroundings I may have wanted to think twice about my reaction. I could have killed him, one of those people coming up the stairs could've been injured as a result of my actions.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com

 

[SAVAGE]

Ok, I know I probably shouldnt start this thread, but I'll do it anyway!! Hopefully, it wont cause too much trouble. Considering we've had people post threads with pictures, people asking about Honor or Freedom, etc. I thought I'd start something along the same lines.

Taking into consideration what the 'bystanders' are going to see, if you were in a confrontation, and after you've exhausted all other possible options, IE- talking your way out, trying to walk away, etc if you honestly felt that this guy was going to take a swing at you, which of the following would you do.

A- Wait until you were 100% sure that he was going to hit you, wait until he started to draw back, throw the punch and then block, or

B- As soon as you saw him start to move, hit him, and end the situation.

Again, keeping in mind the people standing around possibly watching this happen.

Any thoughts? i'm sure I dont have to tell many of you what I would do!!

Mike

Well A...that is what we are taught..and we are trained killers!

B.....ohhhhhh....under some circumstances...like being confronted by two people etc!

 

[jdinca]

Great thread! I agree with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" point of view. If you've got the training that tells you, yeah, this is gonna happen, why give him a free shot? The caveat being, you better BE damned sure it's going to happen. Verbal harrassment isn't enough. Aggressive posture, taking a stance in addition, etc., yeah, that's enough. I like the nonverbal palms out idea. It conveys a message to those watching that you don't want to fight, even if they can't hear you and it allows you to properly position yourself.

 

[MJS]

We have some great discussion going here! Thanks to everyone that has contributed! Thought I'd change the direction a little. We have discussed the pros/cons of the Pre emptive strike. Now, I'd like to hear thoughts on what you think are some of the best strikes to use.

Mike

 

[Bigshadow]

I figured I would throw something in here for some thought...

Why not create the opportunity they want? This way you are setting the stage and they are reacting to that primal urge and all the bystanders see is this person took a swing at you and you were doing nothing.

Just a thought.