The notion that you have to throw/submit yourself in Aikido or get your wrist broken

[JowGaWolf]

Well yeah, but they're piggy backing off of BJJ. I think if Aikidoka want their art to be viewed as more effective, it needs its advocates to let it stand on it's own merit.

There's nothing wrong with that if BJJ has a better approach to help setting up your Aikido techniques. For example, There have been times when I've seen a similar technique from a different system and I see how they were able to set up that technique. Then I go back and I ask myself can I set up my Jow Ga technique the same way that karate set up their karate technique. And a lot of times the answer is yes, even through one technique is Karate and the other is Jow Ga. The technique is similar enough were both are able to exploit the same scenario. If this is what is going on then they can still stay true to Aikido.

At this point you aren't substituting techniques, instead are gaining a better understanding in which an Aikido technique can be used. This would stay true to Aikido. It's only when you start substituting techniques to replace an Aikido technique that you run the risk of watering down Aikido or changing it into something else. Both are acceptable outcomes, but it will be up to the Aikido practitioner to determine that. I'm on the outside so I can't say what percentage of adoption keeps the system Aikido and what percentage changes the system into something else.

 

[jobo]

If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.

Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.

anecdotes are all you've brought to the table, show me evidence that your training is effective, not someone else's training YOURS

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, but I have the same issue with that that I have with folks like Roy Dean; There simply isn't enough evidence to show what they're doing is making grappling more effective overall. Like when I see Roy Dean use his "Aikido" techniques, I'm just seeing Bjj wrist locks. Also Dean's students aren't exactly lighting the competitive world on fire with that influx of Aikido techniques. The same can be said for Wolfman's student who happened to win a match using an unorthodox technique.

Nothing in the above examples matches what you saw out of Bravo and Renzo's schools in the earlier part of the decade with the leg locking phase that lit the competitive BJJ world on fire and completely revolutionized the art. Until something like that occurs with all of this "Aikido" stuff, it's just a marketing ploy IMO.

It is a bit like if you want to be a top gun eye gouging expert. You don't go an do Krav and train eye gouging all day. You box and wrestle and then adapt that.

Because that is the structure that makes the technique work.

Same with wristlocks. If I dominate the clinch or the grip fight I will have a much higher percentage of successfully applying wrist locks than if I study wristlocks for ten years.

Otherwise yeah proof you can use wristlocks on smaller less experienced guys is what it is I suppose.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And if any kind of live testing is not only not part of the process, but is highly discouraged? This is the case in many 'martial' arts clubs across the lands.

Agree with you that if Aikido live testing was discouraged as a policy, that could be a serious problem.

Many years ago, one weekend, Sensei Armando Flores and another Karate friend of mine visited me in my house. There was a Karate tournament in town that day. All 3 of us went to compete that tournament. Armando was disqualified by using too much force on face contact. He was kicked out of his Aikido Association after that day.

Not sure what kind of Aikido policy has today. Does anybody know?

 

[drop bear]

but your putting an arbitrary measure on what is and isn't effective.

back in the day when I did jow ga its was EXTREMELY effective in numerous altercation.

I remember one where a guy was threatening to put a glass in my face and i knew he couldn't hit me with it. so I said go on try it and he did and he couldn't hit me with it. Now that's a very good measure of it being effective with practical benefits like still having the sight in both eyes

It is Flying cranes imaginary cat though. The one he assures you exists but just never can find evidence of it.

 

[drop bear]

So anyway all reminds me of this video again.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, if you hit someone with a reverse tiger claw or standing backfist or something it will hurt, but something like that isn't on the level of any given boxing or Muay Thai strike.

Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA. Just me personally. I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes. I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face. I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below. The second part would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back. The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it. Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls. Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw.

Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that. But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.

As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch. That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes. This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of a martial arts consists of.

There just isn't a culture spanning hundreds of years of jow ga guys fighting each other/all comers in a live environment.

Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years? I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.

Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created? Have you even research such a thing?

The **** that works against trained killers is the best ****.

Again this doesn't make sense to me. So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons What point are you trying to make?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Actually pulling guard is really risky and low percentage outside of pure BJJ comp.

I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.

If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.

In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.

How will BJJ expert solve this issue?

 

[drop bear]

Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA. Just me personally. I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes. I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face. I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below. The second part would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back. The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it. Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls. Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw.

Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that. But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.

As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch. That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes. This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of a martial arts consists of.

Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years? I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.

Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created? Have you even research such a thing?

Again this doesn't make sense to me. So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons What point are you trying to make?

I would rather avoid those barbosa knee destroying leg kicks.

 

[drop bear]

I don't understand why people like to use pull guard.

If my right hand grab on your right door, when you use pull guard on me, my right forearm will be right across your throat when we both land on the ground. If I want to play dirty, my right elbow can smash on your nose.

In the following picture, if the white applies pull guard, the red's right fore arm will land right on white's throat.

How will BJJ expert solve this issue?

Pull guard in to a triangle.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You instructor told you that when you do it "like this" and your partner gets the signal that you "done it like this", he or she does a corresponding fall technique. This is assuming the technique works in the first place.

If you are training joint locks like this then you are doing it all wrong. Comply doesn't and shouldn't mean you preemptively go along. You should still be able to fill the tension in the wrist and when you feel that, that is when you go with it the lock.

The way I trained locks in school was we allowed people to put the locks on us. If my partner gets the technique correct then I should feel the pain without the damage and at that point I should not try to fight it. If my partner doesn't get the technique correct then I don't go with it. Instead I inform my partner that he has not done the technique correctly. I continue to do this until my partner gets the technique correct.

The only signal I should be giving my partner that one where I'm feeling the pain. Depending on the type of joint lock being used, there may be no "going along option" There may only be a quickly tapping of the hand or your partner makes a grunting noise in pain as he forgets to tap out. My first time training joint locks, I learned that Tapping out is a learned response.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If anecdotes were reliable all TMAs would be filled to the brim with trained killers doing 'too deadly for the cage' techniques.

Once you require other forms of evidence that narrative quickly evaporates.

One of my goals is to be functional with my staff techniques. If I want to learn how to be functional with my Staff techniques, then how am I going to test that in an MMA fight?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Pull guard in to a triangle.

Do you have any clip to show that?

In the following picture, when white uses leg to lift blue, blue can also use his foot to step into white's groin (symmetry). This is one example that technique X can be used to counter technique X itself.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would rather avoid those barbosa knee destroying leg kicks.

I need my eyes. So one kick please.. lol. Leg kicks are awesome though. It really speaks volumes to the power behind those kicks and the technique.

 

[Alan Smithee]

[
L

Do you have any clip to show that?

In the following picture, when white uses leg to lift blue, blue can also use his foot to step into white's groin (symmetry). This is one example that technique X can be used to counter technique X itself.

White is not doing a triangel in the picture

 

[Martial D]

anecdotes are all you've brought to the table, show me evidence that your training is effective, not someone else's training YOURS

Discussing how I train personally would be a weird derail to the thread. This isn't about any one individual.

Also, I'm not sure you know what an anecdote is.

 

[Martial D]

Tiger claw concepts displayed in MMA. Just me personally. I prefer you kicking the crap out of my leg then putting your fingers in my eyes. I rather take a muay thai kick then you putting your fingers in my eyes then following up with trying to pull me by my face. I'm not sure if you know the application of what tiger claw is, but the first part is what you see in the videos below. The second part would be to grab the face like you would grab punching back. The 3rd part would be then to pull on the face after you have grabbed it. Pulling down, left, right, or back are acceptable pulls. Doing 1 or all parts is acceptable to be within the concept of Tiger Claw.

Most people only know Hollywood Tiger claw and expect it to look like that. But in reality it looks a lot like what the videos show below.

As far as comparing a tiger claw to a kick or a punch. That's ridiculous as all three are designed for different purposes. This is exactly what I mean when I say that MMA is not a good standard for measuring the totality of a martial arts. At most you will only get parts of a martial arts consists of.

Hung ga is said to be created in the 17th century some time in the 1600's, so is that hundreds of years? I think they only had written and word of mouth documentation of history back then.

Before I joined Martial Talk, did you even know that Jow Ga Kung Fu existed? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that the practitioners from the early years of Jow Ga which including fighting people from various places including Thailand? Has anyone told you about the tournaments that Hung ga practitioners participated in before Jow Ga kung fu was created? Have you even research such a thing?

Again this doesn't make sense to me. So train killers use poisons, explosives, knives, guns, and other things that aren't fighting with the bare hands with no weapons What point are you trying to make?

/R/whoosh

Where to start.

Yes, every TMA has history and lore and tales of unbeatable fighters, etc.

They never seem to show up in the present day though. Weird.

And by trained killers, I am obviously not talking about guns and knives. I'll try to remember not to make analogies when responding to you in the future lol

 

[Martial D]

One of my goals is to be functional with my staff techniques. If I want to learn how to be functional with my Staff techniques, then how am I going to test that in an MMA fight?

Uhh..what? You're not.

You're also not going to get any better at fighting with it by whirling around and fighting imaginary people doing a choreographed routine.

What you would have to do is gear up and do a ton of HEMA style sparring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

White is not doing a triangel in the picture

At 0.27, white's

- right elbow can drop on black's throat (or nose).
- left knee can drop into black's groin.

When you pull your opponent down, it's very difficult to judge whether your opponent drops his elbow, or knee on you on purpose, or he just loses his balance.

Many injury can happen when pull guard is applied even if BJJ can be a safe and friendly game.

Someone dropped his elbow straight down on my heart while I was on the ground. I was almost killed that day. Even today, I still worry about my opponent "elbow dropping".

 

[Hanzou]

At 0.27, white's

- right elbow can drop on black's throat (or nose).
- left knee can drop into black's groin.

When you pull your opponent down, it's very difficult to judge whether your opponent drops his elbow, or knee on you on purpose, or he just loses his balance.

Many injury can happen when pull guard is applied even if BJJ can be a safe and friendly game.

Eh, that's pretty easy to say, but you actually control the speed of Uke's posture collapse in a guard pull, and you can make adjustments as they are falling towards you. If they attempt to bring their elbow to your throat for example, they can actually make things worse for themselves and allow you to sweep them or take their back. This is why techniques like going into a triangle from a guard pull is possible in the first place. This is also why Guard pulls work in MMA environments (albeit by elite level Guard players).