The new Creative Poomsae Division at 2011 World Championship

[ralphmcpherson]

I can only speak for the Brits (which isn't saying they are better than anyone, I'm only speaking from my own experience) but the TKD people I know tend to be what you'd call old school. There still isn't the huge drive for money making on a large scale though it is here, schools with contracts etc and will possibly get bigger though being a small place we may never have schools where they have a thousand students. Most of the MMA fighters I know that come from TKD seem to be 'non sport' TKD, my friend's club where I sometimes train is hard core sparring and self defence type TKD. Perhaps more akin to karate? he trains children and adults separately which I enjoy, tbh I hate mixed adult and childrens classes, I think it does no good to teach them all the same and at the same time.

The various TKD people I meet on martial arts seminars around the country, which are open to all styles, seem well able to hold their own in the self defence sections and certainly have a good knowledge of techniques. I haven't met any 6 year old blackbelts either though I know they are around, they are usually the subject of media articles. A lot of the senior TKD black belts are very much pre Olympic TKD though, perhaps they keep the 'tough' TKD alive?

Im really starting to think it may be a cultural thing. I can only speak on behalf of my local area but we have 3 very large (in excess of 3000 students) tkd clubs in my proximity that basically have a monopoly on the area. All 3 of these clubs are non-kukkiwon, old style, self defence related tkd clubs. We do have olympic style clubs around the place but even if you combined all their students they would still have far less students than 'the big three'. It is only from reading on forums such as these that I am even aware of all the negatives associated with tkd. It appears that 'old school' tkd clubs are on the decline in America. There really is a huge market for traditional tkd and Im surprised more people dont take advantage of this.

 

[Tez3]

Im really starting to think it may be a cultural thing. I can only speak on behalf of my local area but we have 3 very large (in excess of 3000 students) tkd clubs in my proximity that basically have a monopoly on the area. All 3 of these clubs are non-kukkiwon, old style, self defence related tkd clubs. We do have olympic style clubs around the place but even if you combined all their students they would still have far less students than 'the big three'. It is only from reading on forums such as these that I am even aware of all the negatives associated with tkd. It appears that 'old school' tkd clubs are on the decline in America. There really is a huge market for traditional tkd and Im surprised more people dont take advantage of this.

Until I came onto MT I didn't realise that there was a different 'type' of TKD, I'd always trained at my mates club in the same way I'd trained at my karate club. The sparring was the same, kicks punches and attitude none of the Olympic stuff which quite honestly I'd taken no notice of until the Beijing Games. The self defence stuff was the same, we swapped techniques all the time. The only difference was in the way some techniques were performed, neither better nor worse than karate just a different way of doing them and the patterns but even there I could see what the movements were and work out the Bunkai. I even learned the first couple. We didn't do three and one step in my karate club but that was easy to pick up and see the point of, we do it now in TSD the same way with no pre organised movements.

I think perhaps when martial arts becomes a big business with money making the prime reason for having clubs/schools you will get watering down to attract as many people in as you can get. There's a huge pressure on parents these days to give their children every edge they can to get into good schools, to achieve, to get good careers etc. Anything that offers all the things a martial art can offer has got to be attractive to parents, they are willing to sacrifice a lot to pay for activities their children seem to to need. There's a ready made market for a place that wants to make good money.

I have a friend who's currently living in Australia, he's lived here twice and Oz twice, his children went to school both here and over there, I think the school systems in both places is different from American schools, thers more emphasis on sports so that parents expect their children to actually be doing effective martial arts rather than using the classes as childcare. From what I've seen Austrailians are very competitive ( I realise this is prob an understatement lol) in sports and anything wishy wasy won't run with them. Kids who are used to Aussie rules and rugby aren't going to want to be fannying around in a martial arts class, they want the real thing! The adults defintely won't want the dancing type of TKD!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Until I came onto MT I didn't realise that there was a different 'type' of TKD, I'd always trained at my mates club in the same way I'd trained at my karate club. The sparring was the same, kicks punches and attitude none of the Olympic stuff which quite honestly I'd taken no notice of until the Beijing Games. The self defence stuff was the same, we swapped techniques all the time. The only difference was in the way some techniques were performed, neither better nor worse than karate just a different way of doing them and the patterns but even there I could see what the movements were and work out the Bunkai. I even learned the first couple. We didn't do three and one step in my karate club but that was easy to pick up and see the point of, we do it now in TSD the same way with no pre organised movements.

I think perhaps when martial arts becomes a big business with money making the prime reason for having clubs/schools you will get watering down to attract as many people in as you can get. There's a huge pressure on parents these days to give their children every edge they can to get into good schools, to achieve, to get good careers etc. Anything that offers all the things a martial art can offer has got to be attractive to parents, they are willing to sacrifice a lot to pay for activities their children seem to to need. There's a ready made market for a place that wants to make good money.

I have a friend who's currently living in Australia, he's lived here twice and Oz twice, his children went to school both here and over there, I think the school systems in both places is different from American schools, thers more emphasis on sports so that parents expect their children to actually be doing effective martial arts rather than using the classes as childcare. From what I've seen Austrailians are very competitive ( I realise this is prob an understatement lol) in sports and anything wishy wasy won't run with them. Kids who are used to Aussie rules and rugby aren't going to want to be fannying around in a martial arts class, they want the real thing! The adults defintely won't want the dancing type of TKD!

You pretty much hit the nail on the head there Tez. Aussieis find it hard to have a 'friendly' game of anything and even backyard cricket ends up like a test match. We have a massive number of sportspeople on the world stage in many sports for such a small country and we dont accept failure in sport. Even when I coach my son's soccer team the parents take it very seriously (and he is under 6's). We do have mcdojos though, and quite a few in certain areas, but generally if a parent puts their kid in martial arts they want them to learn how to fight, they love all the trimmings that go along with it also (respect, confidence etc), but the main focus is learning to fight.

 

[miguksaram]

I'll agree that all races have been/are doing this in TKD, but let's not overlook the obvious. The Koreans came forth with TKD and the rest of us were tutored by them. What we learned from them was not only the martial art/physical aspects, but the business end also. So what all the other races are doing is the direct result of follow the leader.

So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them? Bill Clark one of the biggest money makers in TKD did not get his money training from Lee. He helped in the development of the business that is now ATA. Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools. As I look around my area there are only a few chain schools which less than half are Korean owned.

Now as to the subject of the Poomsae competition. Regardless if schools all over the planet are doing this, the international aspect is a vestige of the Koreans. Out of the clear blue sky, they decide to offer this new venue and you really want folks to think it's nothing more than holding TKD to higher standard.

I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard. I said that it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who do this a part of their program. Never said this would place TKD at a higher standard.

Just look at all the options that they have introduced within the past year or two. We've had the skip Dan, don't even have to show up promotional offering in Vegas. A couple of new competition levels added, Super seniors forms and sparring for the well over 60 group. The Masters courses in Chicago along with what ever other courses they dream up. We didn't have any of these things back in the 70's/80's or even the early 90's, that I can recall.

So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items. I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad and that they group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right? As for skip dans, that has gone on forever through the schools. So not sure how offering an actual testing is any different than someone going through their own school to do it.

Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters' course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were to travel to Korea to do it? The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense. So you didn't have it while you were coming up in ranks, does that automatically make it bad for the new generation to have these opportunities?

As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing it. They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances.

... but to resort to name calling is beneath you, I hold you to a much higher level than that.

And I apologize for that. However, you statements rang with racism towards the Koreans, singling them out as the root of all evil in TKD. Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own.

 

[miguksaram]

Our tkd club actually attracts students because we DONT get into all the flashy stuff. There is a huge market out there for people wanting "realistic and street effective martial arts", and these people are simply turned off when they walk into a dojang and see people jumping around like gymnasts. Yes, there is a market out there also for the flashy stuff, but you are mistaken if you think a club has to offer that to 'keep their doors open'. Our club is flourishing and its because we focus heavily on the self defence side of tkd, and thats what many potential clientel are looking for.

I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open. I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.

 

[Tez3]

I never said that they had to offer it in order to keep their doors open. I said that by offering it, it tends to attract more individuals who otherwise may not have been interested in martial arts.

It may well put more people off than it attracts. The sheer gymnastic efforts involved in some of this stuff would put a lot of people off who could actually manage 'normal' martial arts.

If it attracts people into a class and then they find out you'd don't actually teach it, they will think it's false advertising.

 

[miguksaram]

It may well put more people off than it attracts. The sheer gymnastic efforts involved in some of this stuff would put a lot of people off who could actually manage 'normal' martial arts.

If it attracts people into a class and then they find out you'd don't actually teach it, they will think it's false advertising.

Creative poomsae does not actually equate the need to know gymnastics. That is a totally different realm on its own. I can not speak for every school that has a program like this, I can only speak for our school. We are up front with anyone interested in learning that program, that they will have to be enrolled in our core program for a while in order to build a strong foundation before they can start any creative items. The other option is if they come from previous martial arts training or are currently enrolled in another school, they can take this particular program as well.

I think it is only false advertisement if you tell them that you can teach them how to do all of that when you can't or that you tell them that is all they are going to learn and nothing else.

 

[Tez3]

It seems more like cheerleading than martial arts though. I think it could be a fun activity for kids to help then lern the movements but not as a serious competitive event. The basic point of learning kata/pattrns/forms is learning their content, the Bunkai for self defence, this is just an amusement.

 

[dancingalone]

Creative poomsae does not actually equate the need to know gymnastics. That is a totally different realm on its own. I can not speak for every school that has a program like this, I can only speak for our school. We are up front with anyone interested in learning that program, that they will have to be enrolled in our core program for a while in order to build a strong foundation before they can start any creative items. The other option is if they come from previous martial arts training or are currently enrolled in another school, they can take this particular program as well.

Perhaps it is not totally fair, but I envision something ultimately resulting in creative poomsae like those ISKA weapons forms competitions. The people in ISKA weapons tournaments in fact display poor fundamentals in handling their weapons when you view it from a traditional kobudo background as I do. They use extremely light weapons expressively designed for competition, and thus they do all sorts of 'tricks' virtually impossible to perform with a standard traditional weapon. Yet, take the toy bo for example and use it in a traditional partner drill with a traditional bo and the toy wouldn't even stand up to a single block, parry, and strike exchange.

It's a totally different activity altogether from traditional kobudo. I fear this creative poomsae thing will also evolve along the lines of what XMA is.

 

[miguksaram]

It seems more like cheerleading than martial arts though. I think it could be a fun activity for kids to help then lern the movements but not as a serious competitive event. The basic point of learning kata/pattrns/forms is learning their content, the Bunkai for self defence, this is just an amusement.

Then why compete with any kata/poomsae if the only intent is to learn bunkai? With that logic it kata should not be in competitions at all. Try telling those athletes who do creative and extreme (the name given when they add the acrobatics and tricks) forms, that it is not a serious competitive event. Those who are top in this division work their butts off to get there.

All competition is amusement.

 

[miguksaram]

Perhaps it is not totally fair, but I envision something ultimately resulting in creative poomsae like those ISKA weapons forms competitions. The people in ISKA weapons tournaments in fact display poor fundamentals in handling their weapons when you view it from a traditional kobudo background as I do. They use extremely light weapons expressively designed for competition, and thus they do all sorts of 'tricks' virtually impossible to perform with a standard traditional weapon. Yet, take the toy bo for example and use it in a traditional partner drill with a traditional bo and the toy wouldn't even stand up to a single block, parry, and strike exchange.

It's a totally different activity altogether from traditional kobudo. I fear this creative poomsae thing will also evolve along the lines of what XMA is.

I agree that it is a totally different activity from traditional kobudo. It is not meant to be traditional, but honestly wish I could dispute you on this but I can't. For the most part you are correct. Many of those kids don't get proper kobudo training and their basics suck! They have great tricks, but over all technique is novice at best. Now this is not the same all around. There are some of them out there that do the flash and have great basics, because they train traditionally as well as creatively.

With the same mind set, you can say that traditional forms will evolve, or devolve depending on your view, the sam way as creative. Forms change all the time some even to the point that they are taught strictly for competition and nothing else. There are a lot of schools that are slowly taking away proper bunkai eith for lack of not knowing or lack of not caring.

 

[Tez3]

Then why compete with any kata/poomsae if the only intent is to learn bunkai? With that logic it kata should not be in competitions at all. Try telling those athletes who do creative and extreme (the name given when they add the acrobatics and tricks) forms, that it is not a serious competitive event. Those who are top in this division work their butts off to get there.

All competition is amusement.

Indeed, why do people compete in kata, all they are doing is going through the motions to see who moves nicely. Pointless.
I'm sure they do work hard but the point of kata is still Bunkai, it wasn't formed to make a competition or to be creative, it was designed as realistic self defence. However hard these people train it doesn't take away kata's function. Kata without Bunkai is just movements.

 

[miguksaram]

Indeed, why do people compete in kata, all they are doing is going through the motions to see who moves nicely. Pointless.
I'm sure they do work hard but the point of kata is still Bunkai, it wasn't formed to make a competition or to be creative, it was designed as realistic self defence. However hard these people train it doesn't take away kata's function. Kata without Bunkai is just movements.

I can't disagree with that.

So your whole view point is that there should be no forms at all in competition...only fighting. But then shouldn't we just do away with all fighting competition because it does not reflect the life or death combat you would have to use in the street in order to survive. Even MMA does not have groin shots or eye gouging or throat strikes. So fighting in competition is basicly useless as well since it does not meet the core purpose.

 

[Disco]

I had intended to let this discussion go after my last post, but for some misguided reason, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. We'll discuss items one at a time:

"So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them?"

Of course every student that joined TKD when it first came over already had degrees in business from Harvard. (Sarcasm at it's finest). The VAST majority of people that trained in a NEW form of martial arts had no background in operating a dojang or opting for an organization or running a tournament. They watched what their instructors did, are doing and followed suit. So yes the obvious answer that they had no martial arts business savy.

"Bill Clark one of the biggest money makers in TKD did not get his money training from Lee. He helped in the development of the business that is now ATA."

So one particular American, joined in the development of ATA and ATA was birthed long after TKD came here, and that constitutes an open door for all of us? I'm sure that Bill watched and learned during his formative time in training, from his instructor(s).

"Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools"

Never said they were, but offering "not every" sure indicates that many do.

"I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard. I said that it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who do this a part of their program. Never said this would place TKD at a higher standard."

OK, so just getting more people into competition has nothing to do with TKD standards, then it's just a way to glean more money from additional people. Now which tenant would that fall under?

"So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items. I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad"

Contradiction here? Your phrasing of "So it's a bad thing" seems to condone these items, but then you agree that Vegas was bad.

"group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right?"

USAT correct, at the behest of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon reps were on site. Guess were the funds went................................Back to the Kukkiwon.

"Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters' course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were to travel to Korea to do it?"

It's exactly that reason, travel to Korea. that prompted them to come over here and offer it. They made more money by having more folks attend here states side. It's just simple math. 25 people have the means to travel to Korea, where as 100 people can drive to Chicago.

"The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense."

Like I said, can't/won't see the forest for the trees. If it wasn't needed back then, why would or should it be needed now? You know the answer, but your bias won't let you admit to it.

"As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing it. They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances."

They lose money and you know for a fact that they do? I can't see it and absolutely don't trust it. As I said prior, we didn't have or need it back when and for them to offer it now and as you say lose money on an unneeded function makes no sense and it's BAD BUSINESS!........

"Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own."

Never said that they did, but here by your own admission, which goes against what you said earlier, other's learned from them.

"However, you statements rang with racism towards the Koreans,"

They were not racist, but your biased opinion saw them that way. I was only pointing out the focal point of the International Poomsae competition was at the direction of the Kukkiwon or the WTF and both are located in Korea and run by Koreans. That's a statement of fact, not a race issue.

The one thing we will totally agree on is that we see things very differently. So be it.

 

[miguksaram]

I had intended to let this discussion go after my last post, but for some misguided reason, you refuse to see the forest for the trees. We'll discuss items one at a time:

"So you are saying that none of the students had any business savy until the Koreans taught them?"

Of course every student that joined TKD when it first came over already had degrees in business from Harvard. (Sarcasm at it's finest). The VAST majority of people that trained in a NEW form of martial arts had no background in operating a dojang or opting for an organization or running a tournament. They watched what their instructors did, are doing and followed suit. So yes the obvious answer that they had no martial arts business savy.

What you are saying here applies to the Koreans as well. You state it as though they all came to America knowing how to tap the market and make money. Many of them coming over here in the beginning did not have a lot of business savy or knew how to run a tournament. It wasn't like today where there was a tournament happening every weekend...even in Korea. Many of them had help from their students as well as just busted their @$$ to make it work.

So one particular American, joined in the development of ATA and ATA was birthed long after TKD came here, and that constitutes an open door for all of us? I'm sure that Bill watched and learned during his formative time in training, from his instructor(s).

Ummm...not quite. It seems it was his business savy that help build ATA not Lee's. Bill Clark is just one example. We can talk about the Kovar's, who I believe are Kenpo. They have a chain of schools as well and there many others similar who were not raised under the Koreans.

"Plus not every Korean teaching TKD is opening tons of branch schools"

Never said they were, but offering "not every" sure indicates that many do.

So if I say not all black people steal do you automatically think that indicates that many do? Sorry but that logic doesn't seem right.

"I never said that it was holding TKD to a higher standard. I said that it was a way to attract people into competition and possibly schools who do this a part of their program. Never said this would place TKD at a higher standard."

OK, so just getting more people into competition has nothing to do with TKD standards, then it's just a way to glean more money from additional people. Now which tenant would that fall under?

How does wanting a successful event go against or having anything to do with tenents? Again, have you ever had your own event and if so did you do so hoping to lose money?

"So it is a bad thing that they now offer such items. I definetly agree that what went down in LV was bad"

Contradiction here? Your phrasing of "So it's a bad thing" seems to condone these items, but then you agree that Vegas was bad.

The concept is not a bad thing. How USAT executed it was.

"group who ran that screwed it up...USAT right?"

USAT correct, at the behest of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon reps were on site. Guess were the funds went................................Back to the Kukkiwon.

From what I have heard there were problems with because USAT kept a lot of that money and allowed people to test who were not qualified for. KKW had no prior knowledge of the applicants as they relied on USAT to screen them. Then USAT pushed everything back on KKW saying it was all their fault that things did go right.

So yes Las Vegas did not reflect a positive result of what should have a nice opportunity for folks.

"Why is it such a bad thing that KKW decided to hold the a masters' course here in the US saving people a lot more money that if they were to travel to Korea to do it?"

It's exactly that reason, travel to Korea. that prompted them to come over here and offer it. They made more money by having more folks attend here states side. It's just simple math. 25 people have the means to travel to Korea, where as 100 people can drive to Chicago.

Ok so it is their greed to come over here and help promote TKD. I can see it now...hovering over a bottle of soju until VIOLA!!! Hey we can suck more money out of these saps if we went there! Question...how come they don't just have a traveling group of GM's to do this all over the world then?

"The whole argument of we didn't have this way back when, just doesn't make sense."

Like I said, can't/won't see the forest for the trees. If it wasn't needed back then, why would or should it be needed now? You know the answer, but your bias won't let you admit to it.

You know people got along just fine without them horseless carriages. Heck I was still able to get my letters way before them there email startin' come around. We didn't need them back then why do we need them now?

"As for the USTC who sponsors the master courses, they lose money doing it. They offer it so to help TKD people have the opportunity to takes these courses who other wise would not be able to due to finances."

They lose money and you know for a fact that they do? I can't see it and absolutely don't trust it. As I said prior, we didn't have or need it back when and for them to offer it now and as you say lose money on an unneeded function makes no sense and it's BAD BUSINESS!........

Yes, I absolutely know that they lost money. Wait bad business? But you said they are trying to milk us for all of our money. So which is it? Bad business or is it the fact they are trying to help people achieve certain progression in TKD that otherwise wouldn't be available to them due to lack of funds.

"Sorry but the Koreans do not hold the monopoly in money making in TKD and while other races may have learned from them others have been more than capable of capatilizing on their own."

Never said that they did, but here by your own admission, which goes against what you said earlier, other's learned from them.

My point was that people were more than capable of capitalizing regardless if they learned from Koreans or Chinese or Japanese.

Anyway, it is what it is.

 

[Disco]

As I said prior, we'll never see the sky the same color. No matter what I offer in the discussion, your full over bloated bias comes shinning through. You want/need to defend any and all negative discussions about Koreans and to be honest, I'm tired of talking to a tree. A lot of us can actually see the forest...............:deadhorse

 

[Tez3]

I can't disagree with that.

So your whole view point is that there should be no forms at all in competition...only fighting. But then shouldn't we just do away with all fighting competition because it does not reflect the life or death combat you would have to use in the street in order to survive. Even MMA does not have groin shots or eye gouging or throat strikes. So fighting in competition is basicly useless as well since it does not meet the core purpose.

Oh we have car park fights, anything goes, dead and bloody bodies everywhere.!

Kata without Bunkai is just movements, the same as Taebo or boxercise, it doesn't reflect it's use. Sparring and competition fighting does reflect it's use. Non martial artists look at kata with music and see dance, they see no use for the movements. The same people watching MMA/sparring etc can see what the movements are for, it's self explanitory.

 

[taekwondodo]

Y'll opposing this without having ANY knowledge on the subject. The guidelines isn't even out yet and y'll just jumping to alot of conclusion. Flashy this, flashy that...and here I thought y'll have an open mind. *sheesh*

What if the guide lines said, there is a team of no more than 5 people, 1 person have to be a female *making that up* and in your routine you must do:
1. front kicks
2. Side kicks
3. 2 flying side kicks
4. 1 jumping reverse side kicks.
5. middle blocks
6. 2 double knife hand blocks...etc..

-No back flips
-No leg sweeps
-et.
Duration is 1-2 minutes
Instrumental music only
Performers must be synchronize and physical expression must be coinside with music.

I can see that for World Competition.

 

[ETinCYQX]

and here I thought y'll have an open mind.

Nope. Where'd you get an idea like that? :ultracool

I still hate it just on principle. Probably not going to convince me otherwise, either.

 

[dancingalone]

Y'll opposing this without having ANY knowledge on the subject. The guidelines isn't even out yet and y'll just jumping to alot of conclusion. Flashy this, flashy that...and here I thought y'll have an open mind. *sheesh*

What if the guide lines said, there is a team of no more than 5 people, 1 person have to be a female *making that up* and in your routine you must do:
1. front kicks
2. Side kicks
3. 2 flying side kicks
4. 1 jumping reverse side kicks.
5. middle blocks
6. 2 double knife hand blocks...etc..

-No back flips
-No leg sweeps
-et.
Duration is 1-2 minutes
Instrumental music only
Performers must be synchronize and physical expression must be coinside with music.

I can see that for World Competition.

That still sounds really dumb to me. But different strokes for different folks.