The Need to Be Recognized as Superior

[guy b]

I don't know anything about the style, so I can't speak to that. I'm just going off what Juany posted.

Why argue so passionately to salvage some tortured validity from Juany's original post? Looks pretty obvious that he just forgot about the existence of SC. No biggie

 

[guy b]

Sorry I should have clarified Shuai jiao is a sport (I think it may be the oldest documented "court sport" in China, I am talking combat/real fighting arts.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

The most unrealistic thing about any grappling method that doesn't incorporate cloth grabbing is that people actually do wear clothes and that simply grabbing them renders much of what you do when they are not wearing clothes unworkable. This is why judo and SC don't look like wrestling, and why trying to wrestle in a judo match is very low %

 

[Juany118]

I think he just wasn't including Shiu Jao in his original comment, because he views it as a competition-focused rather than a fight-focused style. It's not so much about the crippling-ness of the style (reducing those techniques is a natural effect of preparing for most competitions). If Shiu Jao is among the exceptions (grabbing cloth), then his original post still has validity.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. Thank you for explaining it better.

 

[Juany118]

This is how the United States Shuai Chiao organization describes the art. United States Shuai-chiao Association

That is how they explain it, and that is indeed it's initial origin BUT like Greco-Roman evolved from Pankration modern Shuai Jiao became a "court sport" around 2000 years ago. If someone decided to try and resurrect the original good for them, but since that wrestling style has almost as many variations as Kung-fu does, anyone who says "this is Shuai Jiao" will make me skeptical. Also remember Kendo associations will describe themselves in a similar manner but there is a BIG difference between Kendo and Kenjutsu. That again isn't to say that it isn't effective and can't be used to kill/cripple, all martial arts come from such origins. The difference is one needs thought to not be trying to hurt/cripple the other needs thought to do so.

Just realized a better example (in the Asian context) modern Shuai Jiao that I have seen is akin to the relationship between Judo and traditional Jujutsu. Judo can be taken a step further and cripple/maim BUT that isn't the raison d'être.

 

[guy b]

Here is wrestling focused ex MMA fighter Leigh Remedios in a BJJ comp. Clothing effectively negates his wrestling based standup grappling, and Remedios a much better MMA guy and wrestler than opponent is at BJJ

 

[Juany118]

Why argue so passionately to salvage some tortured validity from Juany's original post? Looks pretty obvious that he just forgot about the existence of SC. No biggie

Maybe, maybe not. I just look at it like a sport art and, while perhaps a touch anal retentive when I think Martial Art I instinctively think "war" arts because that is the whole point of the word "martial". I will thus often not consider Judo (even though I know it can be effective), Kendo, even Western Boxing because of this admitted "blind spot".

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is pretty much what I was thinking. Thank you for explaining it better.

Hey if Tony Dismukes can so often clarify what I said, I may as well provide that service for others!

 

[Steve]

That is how they explain it, and that is indeed it's initial origin BUT like Greco-Roman evolved from Pankration modern Shuai Jiao became a "court sport" around 2000 years ago. If someone decided to try and resurrect the original good for them, but since that wrestling style has almost as many variations as Kung-fu does, anyone who says "this is Shuai Jiao" will make me skeptical. Also remember Kendo associations will describe themselves in a similar manner but there is a BIG difference between Kendo and Kenjutsu. That again isn't to say that it isn't effective and can't be used to kill/cripple, all martial arts come from such origins. The difference is one needs thought to not be trying to hurt/cripple the other needs thought to do so.

Just realized a better example (in the Asian context) modern Shuai Jiao that I have seen is akin to the relationship between Judo and traditional Jujutsu. Judo can be taken a step further and cripple/maim BUT that isn't the raison d'être.

This is so backwards, I don't even know how to respond. You're saying a typical judoka will be less likely to cripple or maim than a typical jujutsuka? That's absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Steve]

Maybe, maybe not. I just look at it like a sport art and, while perhaps a touch anal retentive when I think Martial Art I instinctively think "war" arts because that is the whole point of the word "martial". I will thus often not consider Judo (even though I know it can be effective), Kendo, even Western Boxing because of this admitted "blind spot".

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

someone has a blind spot, but I don't think it's guy b, or judo, or even western boxing, in this case. If martial is the operative word, I think you've got things completely reversed in your head.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

someone has a blind spot, but I don't think it's guy b, or judo, or even western boxing, in this case. If martial is the operative word, I think you've got things completely reversed in your head.

I think he was saying the blind spot was his.

 

[Steve]

I think he was saying the blind spot was his.

Lol. Then I agree. That's a massive blindspot.

 

[Juany118]

This is so backwards, I don't even know how to respond. You're saying a typical judoka will be less likely to cripple or maim than a typical jujutsuka? That's absolutely ridiculous.

Well I look at things beyond the propoganada of the art and look at Japanese History. The period during which Judo was created was a period when many a "jitsu" became "do" because of the influence of the Meji Restoration which specifically were trying to reduce the "war" element of martial arts in their effort to "modernize". Someone actually posted a link to this history on these forums I will try to seek out but here is a quote from a different source...

The origin of Japan's martial arts is vague, and what we know of it, is more legend than truth. However, the takenouchi-ryu martial art system founded in 1532 is considered the beginning of Japan's jujitsu forms. The system's founder taught jujitsu in a structured and methodical manner.

For the next several hundred years, the martial arts were refined by Samurai who made a lifetime study of some twenty or thirty martial arts. Of these arts only one was based on weaponless self defense -- jujitsu. By the mid-1800's more than 700 different jujitsu systems existed. The most popular were takenouchi-ryu, jikishin-ryu, kyushinryu, yoshin-ryu, mirua-ryu, sekiguchi-ryu, kito-ryu, and tenshin-shinyo-ryu; the last two were instrumental in Judo's development.

It was during this time that Japanese politics disintegrated into disarray. Commodore Perry's visit to Japan in the mid-1850's also changed Japanese civilization by opening up a new world to them. In 1868 Imperial rule was restored (Meiji Restoration) and the decline of the Samurai class started along with a rapid decline in all martial arts. Although the government did not officially ban the martial arts, people were not encouraged to learn or practice them since the state was considered more important than the individual. Jujitsu literally fell into disuse. What was once the glory of the samurai was now looked down on and many well established jujitsu schools began to disappear.

If the budo concept was to survive the Meiji Restoration, it had to change and become a tool to cultivate an individual and make him a better person for the good of all. As a result budo found a home in physical education and sport.

Sport provided teamwork which was good for all and also developed the individual. It was a complete physical education; not just a game. Although self defense techniques were included in the training, emphasis was on using the techniques in a holistic manner. Dr. Jigoro Kano is credited with jujitsu's survival of the Meiji Restoration. He took jujitsu and adapted it to the times. His new methodology was called Judo.

In 1882, Dr. Jigoro Kano (The Father of Judo) made a comprehensive study of these ancient self defense forms and integrated the best of these forms into a sport which is known as Kodokan Judo.

Its that difference in intent... Created for war vs sport that makes a difference in my mind due to wearing a uniform for 25+ years now and in seeing such a difference maybe I have a blind spot other lack /shrug

The link elsewhere on the forums spoke directly to the the transition in Japanese culture from jutsu to do in various martial arts and how the change was in part to suppress a warrior/samurai culture.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[lansao]

I always really liked something that my Sifu said often. He would say that our Wing Chun is "different not better" than other variants. Being introduced to the art by him in a coffee shop meeting, and focusing on practicing the art, I didn't really appreciate why he said it so often. That is, until I got more exposure to the broader community and some of the infighting that takes place between lineages and even between Sifus of the same lineage.

I think it is natural that, in a world where actual fighting is rare enough (outside of pro/mma, prison, war, and high school), we question the validity of what we have learned and our competence in executing it in times of need. I don't think it's good or bad, but that it is to be expected. This questioning often manifests as insecurity and a need to prove the validity that is illegal to express via direct combat, and so instead words are used.

Often, in these exchanges of words, we leverage lineage and the degree to which we stick to tradition, or who has co-signed our skill, as a proxy for our good credit as a competent fighter. The one problem I see with all of this conversation is that it is conversation, and not training. The time spent debating is time that could be spent training and so when I hear "different not better" now, I appreciate it's ability to disarm and side-step all together that debate so that we can get back to work.

~ Alan, Wing Chun Student

 

[Juany118]

I always really liked something that my Sifu said often. He would say that our Wing Chun is "different not better" than other variants. Being introduced to the art by him in a coffee shop meeting, and focusing on practicing the art, I didn't really appreciate why he said it so often. That is, until I got more exposure to the broader community and some of the infighting that takes place between lineages and even between Sifus of the same lineage.

I think it is natural that, in a world where actual fighting is rare enough (outside of pro/mma, prison, war, and high school), we question the validity of what we have learned and our competence in executing it in times of need. I don't think it's good or bad, but that it is to be expected. This questioning often manifests as insecurity and a need to prove the validity that is illegal to express via direct combat, and so instead words are used.

Often, in these exchanges of words, we leverage lineage and the degree to which we stick to tradition, or who has co-signed our skill, as a proxy for our good credit as a competent fighter. The one problem I see with all of this conversation is that it is conversation, and not training. The time spent debating is time that could be spent training and so when I hear "different not better" now, I appreciate it's ability to disarm and side-step all together that debate so that we can get back to work.

~ Alan, Wing Chun Student

Welcome Alan!!!


I could give two gosh darns about linegae. My only dividing line is what is the purpose of the art in the mind of the creator. Perhaps I have an odd perspective. My first Eastern MA was Aikido. The O'Sensei himself said it was supposed to be an art without harm, an art of peace. I studied that art AND a variation that crossed a line to someone and HURT. I understand the difference, maybe because I have also studied history. So I can see how Aikido is intended to not cripple but with modification it can. Same with Judo. I thus look at the original intent of an art and that is how I define it.

I also currently study Wing Chun (Ip Man via William Cheung) so I totally understand the Lineage issue, I just don't think its relevant to the specific point being made.

I don't think any is better, I see all the arts as tools. As an example I can, and have, used a hammer to start a hole in dry wall that is supposed to be with a "proper tool" according to my brother the contractor. I am like my brother when it comes to fighting/martial arts. Basically one art (not lineage) is designed to accomplish a goal from the ground up. Others get there but require additional tools or modifications to close the deal. I admit to a failing however in that I, at times, will make a big deal between an art designed for a ring/competition mat and designed for the street/combat due to my experience which is unique to myself.

I try to avoid it but we all at some point fall prey to personal experience

 

[geezer]

I always really liked something that my Sifu said often. He would say that our Wing Chun is "different not better" than other variants. Being introduced to the art by him in a coffee shop meeting, and focusing on practicing the art, I didn't really appreciate why he said it so often. That is, until I got more exposure to the broader community and some of the infighting that takes place between lineages and even between Sifus of the same lineage....

~ Alan, Wing Chun Student

Hi Alan. Welcome to MT. I hope you can ignore some of the bickering and hang around to post again. I like the humbleness of that "different, not better" attitude. Naturally, we all like what we ourselves do ...which is why we do it. But on an open and "friendly" forum like this, we have to refrain from being arrogant. I believe that one can be discerning and have good judgement without being overtly judgmental. Most of the posters here can live with that premise.

 

[lansao]

Hi Alan. Welcome to MT. I hope you can ignore some of the bickering and hang around to post again. I like the humbleness of that "different, not better" attitude. Naturally, we all like what we ourselves do ...which is why we do it. But on an open and "friendly" forum like this, we have to refrain from being arrogant. I believe that one can be discerning and have good judgement without being overtly judgmental. Most of the posters here can live with that premise.

Thank you!

 

[Steve]

Well I look at things beyond the propoganada of the art and look at Japanese History. The period during which Judo was created was a period when many a "jitsu" became "do" because of the influence of the Meji Restoration which specifically were trying to reduce the "war" element of martial arts in their effort to "modernize". Someone actually posted a link to this history on these forums I will try to seek out but here is a quote from a different source...



Its that difference in intent... Created for war vs sport that makes a difference in my mind due to wearing a uniform for 25+ years now and in seeing such a difference maybe I have a blind spot other lack /shrug

The link elsewhere on the forums spoke directly to the the transition in Japanese culture from jutsu to do in various martial arts and how the change was in part to suppress a warrior/samurai culture.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I look at things the way they are now, regardless of intent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is why judo and SC don't look like wrestling, and why trying to wrestle in a judo match is very low %

Agree!

This is why "single leg" and "double legs" are not used very much in SC or Judo tournament.

In one SC tournament, my opponent was a wrestler. After I had obtained a right upper collar grip on him, he tried to shot in. I stepped back and used my right upper collar grip to pull him all the way down to the ground. Both the 1st round and the 2nd round were finished in less than 7 seconds. That was the easiest championship match that I ever had.

In no jacket wrestling, if my opponent shoots in toward my leg/legs, I will have less time to put my hand on top of his neck, his leg shooting can be much more effective.

In jacket wrestling, your opponent's push (such as leg shooting) can be your pull, and your opponent's pull can be your push. This will not be the case in the no-jacket wrestling.

 

[anerlich]

This is why "single leg" and "double legs" are not used very much in SC or Judo tournament.

That and the fact that they are illegal in Olympic judo.

 

[anerlich]

The one problem I see with all of this conversation is that it is conversation, and not training.

Difficult to do much else on an internet forum.