The historical origins of the Koryo hyung?
- Thread starter exile
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OP
- Thread Starter
- #22
It's the long-lost Pinan 6.
You know... I could almost believe that!
rmclain
Black Belt
The version in the youtube video (where I made the comment) is a little changed from the original, but is clearly the same form. It is different near the end. Perhaps their instructor changed it. We've had this form in our system (as a 4th Gup purple belt requirement) since it's creation in 1967, though it was intended as a 1st Dan form.
I also have a copy of the original Karate Illustrated Magazine article (around 1969) where this form was introduced in print in America for the first time. It was around this time that Roy Kurban and others sent their black belts to learn these forms from GM Kim Soo.
I'll post a scanned copy of the article soon.
R. McLain
I also have a copy of the original Karate Illustrated Magazine article (around 1969) where this form was introduced in print in America for the first time. It was around this time that Roy Kurban and others sent their black belts to learn these forms from GM Kim Soo.
I'll post a scanned copy of the article soon.
R. McLain
I knew Roy Kurban was tought this by him but I a sure the ending is the same and yes exile it is very Shotokanish. Remember alot of the older forms-poomsae;'s are that way. Robert looking forward to the article.
rmclain
Black Belt
It may have actually been Roy Kurban's students traveling to learn these from GM Kim Soo and bringing the forms back to teach GM Kurban. I never actually heard of GM Kurban learning directly from GM Kim Soo, just his students, such as Michael Ward.
R. McLain
Aefibird
Green Belt
Yup, me too. I'm an ex (sadly!) Shotokaner as well as a TKD practitioner and that version of Koryo looks like it could be performed in a Shotokan dojo without attracting attention for being something different.
Very easy to see the links between Karate and Tae Kwon Do through that hyung.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #27
Thanks very much, guys. I think it's extremely interesting how much divergence there is in the stylistic impression created by this original Koryo, created at a time when the 'de-Japanification' of TKD was only just beginning to pick up traction technically, and what the story was seven years later, when the new Koryo was adopted. Clearly, certain sequences of the former were appropriated for the latter, but were embedded within sequences which as totalities look way, way less like the karate sources of TKD hyungs up to that point than the original Koryo did. You can really see the drive for separation between the two arts beginning to take effective form...
I was going to note that the older version seems "less Korean" than the current "more Korean" version. In post-Kwan era TKD, a "less Korean" just won't do. I'm glad there are still some folks who do this, as well as Pal Gwe forms.
CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
I am trying to figure out how to get the video I have on my crackberry to convert and upload to youtube.
The Koryo that we do is different from both of them. There are a few more techniques added in the beginning that I do not see in either one that I had seen on Youtube, or at a WTF school for that matter.
EDIT: Here's the video I took on my Crackberry on Tuesday night. It has the Kumgung Hyung we do as well as our rendition of Koryo Hyung.
The Koryo that we do is different from both of them. There are a few more techniques added in the beginning that I do not see in either one that I had seen on Youtube, or at a WTF school for that matter.
EDIT: Here's the video I took on my Crackberry on Tuesday night. It has the Kumgung Hyung we do as well as our rendition of Koryo Hyung.
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They look pretty much like the standard Kukki forms to me, except that (a) our Keumgang has no kicks, just a couple of stamps, and (b) our Koryo doesn't have that hands-on-hips moment before the side kicks, and the downward palm block is in high walking stance, (c) we perform ours with generally smaller, tauter movements, and much more explosively.
CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
Me neither... looks a little like something out of Palgwe Pal Jang, actually. All those body twists... but even there, the hands aren't on the hips... wonder where that came from!?
Master McLain is correct. This version is very similar to the original, but there are movements that have been changed.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #35
Combat effectiveness has very little to do with appearance. Ballet, gymnastics... yes. Forms encoding effective bunkai... not so much. Since MA forms weren't originally intended to be choreographed dance performances, but rather summaries of strategic principles and tactical applications of actual fighting techniques, fidelity to some æsthetic canon seems a bit, uh, beside the point?
The problem with the New Koryo is the way it is tougth, like the double sidekicks going to the foot and then the cieling please, it is suppose to be knee and lower rib cage for SD purpose. When was the last time you ever seen anybody kick straightto the cielingfor SD? All in all we all have an opinion but the prooblem is opinion does not out wiegh the facts and application of said forms.
Cirdan
Senior Master
I`ll take the beauty of a functional form over showing off any day.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #39
Oook, you're entitled to your own opinion.
Indeed I am.
And that opinion includes the view that once fighting techniques start being evaluated in terms of how pretty they look (in the judgment of whoever happens to be looking), rather than how effective they are, the art is well on its way to losing its combat content and becoming a martial version of figure skating, to be judged in the same essentially arbitrary way as figure skating is, with little more connection to unarmed self-defense than figure skating has.
And when we look at contemporary TKD, what do we see?...
CDKJudoka
Purple Belt
That is one of the things that sabumnim stresses in our Koryo Hyung. The second side kick should NEVER go above chest level. The whole point of that side kick is to cave the chest in, not tap your opponent's head.
I have always been a much bigger fan of kata/poomsae that have an actual application. What is the point of the gynamstics and flips when it is something that will not be used in an SD sitution?
