The historical origins of the Koryo hyung?

[exile]

I'm trying to put together an article on the 'handshake' between KMA history on the one hand and TKD technique, and its practical applications, on the other. In thinking about this stuff, I've been considering a link between the old, old kata Empi and the very modern TKD hyung Koryo. What I'm curious about is whether anyone has an 'inside track' on the thinking that went into Koryo. This hyung was one of the very early 'strictly Korean' advanced forms introduced by the KTA at the beginning of the 1970s, as part of the deliberate, public and very non-amicable divorce of the TKD forms from the Japanese avatars that the former had been quite transparently based on up to that point. It seems clear though that some of the Eunbi hyung movements (derived from the Okinawan Empi kata) were adopted for Koryo, and that the mid/high front snap kicks in the first half mirror the Eunbi reinterpretation of Empi knee strikes as high(er) kicks, incongruously interposed between close-in grabbing moves.

It looks to me as though Koryo was put together by a committee, and I'm pretty sure that's literally true. But does anyone have any sense of the details here...?

 

[rmclain]

As I'm sure you know, the 1970's Koryo Hyung that includes the double side-kicks near the beginning is the second Koryo. This newer version was created the same time as the Palgue forms. Lee Jong-woo pushed for the replacement of the original, which was only created by the KTA committee in 1967.

I can't add anything to this post on the technical content of the 1970's Koryo, as I don't study it, though I study EmPi. Lee Jong-woo was from the Jido-Kwan originally and I'm sure studied Empi.

R. McLain

I'm trying to put together an article on the 'handshake' between KMA history on the one hand and TKD technique, and its practical applications, on the other. In thinking about this stuff, I've been considering a link between the old, old kata Empi and the very modern TKD hyung Koryo. What I'm curious about is whether anyone has an 'inside track' on the thinking that went into Koryo. This hyung was one of the very early 'strictly Korean' advanced forms introduced by the KTA at the beginning of the 1970s, as part of the deliberate, public and very non-amicable divorce of the TKD forms from the Japanese avatars that the former had been quite transparently based on up to that point. It seems clear though that some of the Eunbi hyung movements (derived from the Okinawan Empi kata) were adopted for Koryo, and that the mid/high front snap kicks in the first half mirror the Eunbi reinterpretation of Empi knee strikes as high(er) kicks, incongruously interposed between close-in grabbing moves.

It looks to me as though Koryo was put together by a committee, and I'm pretty sure that's literally true. But does anyone have any sense of the details here...?

 

[exile]

As I'm sure you know, the 1970's Koryo Hyung that includes the double side-kicks near the beginning is the second Koryo. This newer version was created the same time as the Palgue forms. Lee Jong-woo pushed for the replacement of the original, which was only created by the KTA committee in 1967.

Yes, this I knew, and I know some of the nasty background to that whole business, thanks to your excellent background posts about Gm. Kim Soo and the KTA suppression of the Palgwes, Rob.

I can't add anything to this post on the technical content of the 1970's Koryo, as I don't study it, though I study EmPi. Lee Jong-woo was from the Jido-Kwan originally and I'm sure studied Empi.

R. McLain

It's going to be hard, without a time machine, to get back to the thinking in '67 about Koryo, that's clear. Few of those people are with us any more, I'd imagine. I was just hoping maybe someone had a lead on some documentation somewhere that hasn't surfaced...

 

[Miles]

The same committee members who produced the Taeguek series also produced the yudanja poomsae.

This is a thread about the Taeguek series in which I identified the commitee members:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=449290&postcount=1

I don't know any of the original commitee members except GM Park though GM Kim, Soon Bae was at the Kukkiwon when I was there.

I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish.

 

[exile]

The same committee members who produced the Taeguek series also produced the yudanja poomsae.

This is a thread about the Taeguek series in which I identified the commitee members:
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=449290&postcount=1

I don't know any of the original commitee members except GM Park though GM Kim, Soon Bae was at the Kukkiwon when I was there.

I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish.

Thanks for your generous offer, Miles. :asian:

Gm. Park is a link to an all but lost part of our art's history. I hope some of his knowledge of those crucial formative years can be preserved. We have little enough that's reliable to go on even in our comparatively recently history, alas....

TKD needs to get some kind of massive, international oral history project going in the very near future, methinks. There aren't many years left in which to capture some of the key information about the art's childhood and youth...

 

[CDKJudoka]

TKD needs to get some kind of massive, international oral history project going in the very near future, methinks. There aren't many years left in which to capture some of the key information about the art's childhood and youth...

Your mouth to KJM Choi's ears.

 

[dortiz]

"I hope to host GM Park, Hae Man again this year and you are welcome to come and train and ask him any question you wish."

Always a good time. I have some Certs from special trainings with him in the mid 90s. He has great stories.

Dave O.

 

[astrobiologist]

Though I am a TSD practitioner, I know Koryo Hyung (or at least one of the versions of it). I haven't run through it in a while. Maybe I should and maybe break it down to see what applications I can find. Anyone out there have any advice for Koryo applications?

 

[exile]

Your mouth to KJM Choi's ears.

More the other way round, I'd think!

I'm actually a bit surprised that more of this isn't done. Rob McLain's interview with Gm. Kim Soo in our own MA magazine is the kind of thing we need much, much more of.

Though I am a TSD practitioner, I know Koryo Hyung (or at least one of the versions of it). I haven't run through it in a while. Maybe I should and maybe break it down to see what applications I can find. Anyone out there have any advice for Koryo applications?

One place to begin: I'd start by taking those front snap kicks in the first 15 moves to be knee strikes to a close-in controlled attacker's groin or abdomen...

 

[CDKJudoka]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.

 

[exile]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.

No, wow—that's way different from the Koryo I meant. I was thinking of standard WTF Koryo, probably exactly the same one you do.

This one.... it has a number of elements of the KKW/WTF Koryo, but it's not at all the same.

Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced?

Added in edit: OK, I just read the commentary on the right side of the screen—apparently that's exactly what this version is. Thanks for the link, DPhx!

 

[dortiz]

"Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced? "

Yes.

 

[IcemanSK]

I have only seen this version one other time (in another Youtube video) but this one is done much better. I'm glad we have this available to us.

I'm sure the history behind why it was changed (in favor of a more "modern" TKD version) is interesting.

 

[SJON]

That's great. I've been looking for a video of that version for ages. It would be good to find another or to speak to someone who has actually studied it, just to contrast its authenticity.

There's a video of another version of Koryo here http://www.sungshilkwan.com/TangSooDo/forms.htm (the second of the two links), in which the form is the newer one but with a few interesting differences.

It would be interesting to find a resource showing the original versions of all the patterns. Over the last couple of decades I have seen forms changed quite a lot, not necessarily in the "end positions" but the "preparatory" and "in-between" bits. I'm sure this is true of the Taegeuks, Palgwes and KKW-BB forms, perhaps less so of the Chang Hon set.

 

[terryl965]

Exile,

Is this the Koryo Hyung you are talking about?

I think RMClain was the first comment on this particular vid on YT.

I am going to get video of the Koryo Hyung that we do. We do the WTF style, but it looks a little different in the beginning.

This is the first Koryo and was well before the WTF style Koryo. The problem we really have in the facts about this is, people have changed there minds on what really happened over the years for whatever reason that maybe.

 

[terryl965]

No, wow—that's way different from the Koryo I meant. I was thinking of standard WTF Koryo, probably exactly the same one you do.

This one.... it has a number of elements of the KKW/WTF Koryo, but it's not at all the same.

Could this be the first, original one—the one that was was changed by the KTA a year or so after it was introduced?

Added in edit: OK, I just read the commentary on the right side of the screen—apparently that's exactly what this version is. Thanks for the link, DPhx!

Yes this is pre 1970 alot of the old people lIke Roy Kurban and his group still teach this perticular version, I do as well.

 

[SJON]

So Terry, is this version exactly like the one you teach? If so, and assuming you have no connection with the people who demonstrate it in the clip, then we could pretty much take it as original.

 

[Aefibird]

VERY interesting to see the differences in that video of Koryo and the one I practice (the bog-standard WTF version). If indeed it is the "original" Koryo then it is a valuable link to the past.

I can see me watching that vid several more times before this afternoon is out! I always enjoy watching well-done video of hyungs, especially when they present a different version of the form to the one I know or am familliar with seeing. Thanks for the link.

 

[terryl965]

So Terry, is this version exactly like the one you teach? If so, and assuming you have no connection with the people who demonstrate it in the clip, then we could pretty much take it as original.

All the movement are the same Yes and I have no connection with those people in the clip what so ever. I would say this is the original the way I was tought way back then.

 

[exile]

Maybe it's just me... but this version seems much more Shotokan-ish than the KKW version that I learned. Does anyone else have that impression?