The Ghost of Itosu Lives On

[dancingalone]

I have posted before that I am helping to run a Christian TKD class inside my church. We've had good response from the congregation and the program is doing well with the full support of our parish priest. He feels our goals of building fitness, spirit, and self-defense skills mesh well with his own thoughts.

Well, having taught basics for a month or so now, it's time to sit down and fully map out our curriculum. I am a bunkai enthusiast and I also teach many basics from aikido and judo at my original karate school.

Here's my dilemma and this is where the reference to Anko Itosu comes in: Since we accept children as early as age 8, there is frankly much material I feel I cannot incorporate into our Christian TKD program. Some of it is too dangerous like certain neck cranks or throat shots. Some of it probably requires too much coordination and sensitivity for the average kid in our program to execute correctly, given the 2 times a week we see them.

I've always thought Itosu began karate on the path of dilution when he designed a framework to teach children with, but I understand better now his perspective.

So what to do? I DON'T wish to teach a purely punchy, kicky curriculum, yet I recognize some compromises will need to be made compared to my regular karate class. Those of you who have experience with teaching children - what sorts of grappling do you teach them? Which techniques are easier in your opinion for them to learn and understand? Should I perhaps ask this on another forum?

 

[Tez3]

The grappling we teach our children is Judo, my instructor's first art was that so he has a huge grounding in it (no pun intended lol) I'd never done it before but have found it easy to pick up the basics ( even at my age!). I'd never considered doing it before, always thought of it as far too difficult. It's entirely suitable for children of course but also suitable if you wanted it to be, for MMA fighters, that's the joy of it.
We teach the basic moves in Judo to the children, these can be expanded on and taken further for them as they get older or can be just for the adults. For example they learn the basic scarf hold (and escapes) while the MMA fighters are taught to take it further using arm bars etc.
For Bunkai I'd look to Iain Abernethy's site, he does Judo as well as karate and is very amenable to answering questions. He's the leading expert imo on Bunkai and you'll find plenty in his DVD's that are suitable for children and beginners as well as those more advanced.

 

[dancingalone]

We teach the basic moves in Judo to the children, these can be expanded on and taken further for them as they get older or can be just for the adults. For example they learn the basic scarf hold (and escapes) while the MMA fighters are taught to take it further using arm bars etc.

Thanks. Yes, I intend to teach the scarf hold and the stand up clinch along with how to apply basic holds like the headlock, full nelson, etc, as well as counters.

Do you teach the full throws though, Tez? Some seem kid-friendly enough like ashi guruma, but I have misgivings about shoulder throws - a staple in my adult only karate class. If you or anyone else has a list of throws you do teach, I'd love to get a look at it.

For Bunkai I'd look to Iain Abernethy's site, he does Judo as well as karate and is very amenable to answering questions. He's the leading expert imo on Bunkai and you'll find plenty in his DVD's that are suitable for children and beginners as well as those more advanced.

I am sure Mr. Abernethy has great stuff, based on the clips I've seen the internet. I don't see myself learning his stuff from DVDs to teach it myself though. Seems indirect, you know, given my own background. Respectfully.

 

[terryl965]

Dancingalone we teach basic ground game from the age of 6 and they seem to catch one pretty quick, now do not get me wrong we teach them how to get the opponet down and then run for help. So basic throws or leg takedowns and yes we incorporate the shoulder throws as well. What I have found out once they get a pretty good grab on proper balance when they are kicking and punching the rest is simple and remember you can teach them everything you teach your adult class just make it ina more simplier way and remember to tell them once they are on the ground to find help ASAP. There is a book call ground game for childern, I saw it at a half price book store but did not get it, they had about forty good techs, for childern under the age of 16 down to 5-6 so I would also check that out as well.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48896&highlight=TSD+children's+curriculum

Here is a thread where I address the exact same issue and lay out all of the requirements for children up to the 1st gup. Check it out!

This is the curriculum that I currently teach MY children.

 

[dancingalone]

Dancingalone we teach basic ground game from the age of 6 and they seem to catch one pretty quick, now do not get me wrong we teach them how to get the opponet down and then run for help. So basic throws or leg takedowns and yes we incorporate the shoulder throws as well. What I have found out once they get a pretty good grab on proper balance when they are kicking and punching the rest is simple and remember you can teach them everything you teach your adult class just make it ina more simplier way and remember to tell them once they are on the ground to find help ASAP. There is a book call ground game for childern, I saw it at a half price book store but did not get it, they had about forty good techs, for childern under the age of 16 down to 5-6 so I would also check that out as well.

I don't necessarily want to teach a ground game. I was thinking more standing techniques. That said I'll keep an eye out for that book. Nothing comes up in a search on abebooks or amazon with "Ground Game for Children", so perhaps it had another title?

 

[dancingalone]

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48896&highlight=TSD+children's+curriculum

Here is a thread where I address the exact same issue and lay out all of the requirements for children up to the 1st gup. Check it out!

This is the curriculum that I currently teach MY children.

Outstanding, maunakumu! It's funny how you wrestled with same problems three years ago.

I will look your lists over with great interest. Perhaps you would be willing to answer a few questions when I have them?

 

[Makalakumu]

Outstanding, maunakumu! It's funny how you wrestled with same problems three years ago.

I will look your lists over with great interest. Perhaps you would be willing to answer a few questions when I have them?

Absolutely, bring them on. I taught this curriculum to the children at my school from this point on.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks. Yes, I intend to teach the scarf hold and the stand up clinch along with how to apply basic holds like the headlock, full nelson, etc, as well as counters.

Do you teach the full throws though, Tez? Some seem kid-friendly enough like ashi guruma, but I have misgivings about shoulder throws - a staple in my adult only karate class. If you or anyone else has a list of throws you do teach, I'd love to get a look at it.



I am sure Mr. Abernethy has great stuff, based on the clips I've seen the internet. I don't see myself learning his stuff from DVDs to teach it myself though. Seems indirect, you know, given my own background. Respectfully.

Iain is in America soon if it helps lol! His videos presupposes you have knowledge of your katas and style, I suppose you can use them as a beginner but they aren't intended to be used to learn from scratch. They are hugely informative.

Shoulder throws can be done with both students kneeling, but children are honestly better at landing than adults! they bounce! Seriously if they are taught to breakfall they can often make a much better job of throws than adults. Like the karate you can only teach them the basics to start with, so just have a couple of throws, a couple of ground holds and let them go back to back on the mats, you'll find they come up with rudimentary Judo anyway, plus they enjoy rolling around. Kids are like puppies! It gives them a break from the stand up, you don't have to go into a Judo curriculum but the throws and holds you find in the Bunkai are easier to teach if they have a basic idea of what happens on the floor.

 

[dancingalone]

Iain is in America soon if it helps lol! His videos presupposes you have knowledge of your katas and style, I suppose you can use them as a beginner but they aren't intended to be used to learn from scratch. They are hugely informative.

I am sure they are a good resource to many. Of course, I've got to think if you know your system already, you shouldn't need Mr. Abernethy's spin on bunkai other than for fun. He's a Wado-ryu guy right? He's probably a great fit for you, Tez.

Shoulder throws can be done with both students kneeling, but children are honestly better at landing than adults! they bounce! Seriously if they are taught to breakfall they can often make a much better job of throws than adults. Like the karate you can only teach them the basics to start with, so just have a couple of throws, a couple of ground holds and let them go back to back on the mats, you'll find they come up with rudimentary Judo anyway, plus they enjoy rolling around. Kids are like puppies! It gives them a break from the stand up, you don't have to go into a Judo curriculum but the throws and holds you find in the Bunkai are easier to teach if they have a basic idea of what happens on the floor.

Good thoughts. I agree you must practice throwing basics if you are to teach it as part of kata bunkai.

 

[ATC]

Just remember that it is all a progression. You need to start at the beginning and work your way up. So that means just work with break falls first. This is from the back, sides, and front. Do this for some time from a sitting or kneeling position. As they catch on then move to a squatted position, then to standing, then on to an elevated platform. After that they would then progress into some simple catch and sweep techniques. They would apply the break fall techniques they learned plus start the basics of grappling. Then gradually move the techniques to more advanced ones.

I think you teach the same as you would an adult but just slow down. You would not advance your teachings as fast. Your progression would be slower but not watered down at all.

Just don't look at teaching kid or anyone as if they should just know how to do it. You are there to teach them how to do it. So if you look at the end result and then think can a kid do this, then the answer is no. But if you look at the progression then the answer is yes.

Don't be in a hurry to just teach a shoulder throw until you have taught every aspect of the technique from both the thrower and the throwee's perspective. You need to teach all the details in a progressive fashion.

Hope this helps.

 

[Gorilla]

From a parent perspective. Teach them what they can handle when they can handle it. Teach them restraint and how to properly use force. Many kids are not mature enough. Don't promote/teach them techniques. Teach/Promote those kids who are mentally mature enough to handle it. Don't hold them back because of age. Most kids can't handle it I agree but don't hold back the ones who can(they exist). Mental maturity is the key. Don't confuse mental maturity with physical maturity they are completely different.

If my kids would have been held back because of age I am sure that they would have quit . They were lucky enough to have instructors who did not put them in a box.

 

[dancingalone]

From a parent perspective. Teach them what they can handle when they can handle it. Teach them restraint and how to properly use force. Many kids are not mature enough. Don't promote/teach them techniques. Teach/Promote those kids who are mentally mature enough to handle it. Don't hold them back because of age. Most kids can't handle it I agree but don't hold back the ones who can(they exist). Mental maturity is the key. Don't confuse mental maturity with physical maturity they are completely different.

If my kids would have been held back because of age I am sure that they would have quit . They were lucky enough to have instructors who did not put them in a box.

Gorilla, what are your thoughts on Maunakumu's approach? He only promotes children to brown belt, and it's clear that the body of techniques and concepts have been culled to reflect what he thinks is manageable for children.

I understand what you say about the exceptions, but how do you reconcile the show of favoritism compared to the rest of the kids? Keep in mind this is a church program with aims other than producing elite martial artists. Also, I had thought to keep the same curriculum for both the kids and adults so that families could continue to train together...

 

[jks9199]

You have to scale what you teach to the student's ability and both physical and moral development. Moral is the best word I can come up with; I'm trying to say that you don't teach the fatal techniques to kids (or adults...) that are going to be likely to abuse them. That doesn't mean you don't teach the form -- but you may not teach all the applications.

I also personally found that until kids are at least 14 or so... they really need to be in a separate group. They just end up distracting each other and the adults. Even the early teens can be a problem...

 

[Gorilla]

Gorilla, what are your thoughts on Maunakumu's approach? He only promotes children to brown belt, and it's clear that the body of techniques and concepts have been culled to reflect what he thinks is manageable for children.


I don't have a problem with that! From a Martial Arts/Self Defense perspective it makes sense. When you throw in competition it gets more clouded. If you don't promote to BB they will never fight the best competitors
and this will hold them back

I understand what you say about the exceptions, but how do you reconcile the show of favoritism compared to the rest of the kids? Keep in mind this is a church program with aims other than producing elite martial artists. Also, I had thought to keep the same curriculum for both the kids and adults so that families could continue to train together...

[B]It can't be favoritism! They truly have to be better/more mature than the other kids. You really have to be sure. Parents and students will recognize it. You have to be very careful because it can be a problem.


I Understand that it is a church program. Probably the exceptional kid won't walk through the door but if it happens train him/her or refer to a more suitable program.

 

[Gorilla]

You have to scale what you teach to the student's ability and both physical and moral development. Moral is the best word I can come up with; I'm trying to say that you don't teach the fatal techniques to kids (or adults...) that are going to be likely to abuse them. That doesn't mean you don't teach the form -- but you may not teach all the applications.

I also personally found that until kids are at least 14 or so... they really need to be in a separate group. They just end up distracting each other and the adults. Even the early teens can be a problem...

Depends on the KID!!!!

 

[Tez3]

I am sure they are a good resource to many. Of course, I've got to think if you know your system already, you shouldn't need Mr. Abernethy's spin on bunkai other than for fun. He's a Wado-ryu guy right? He's probably a great fit for you, Tez.



Good thoughts. I agree you must practice throwing basics if you are to teach it as part of kata bunkai.

Well, it would be if I still did Wado, I'm TSD now have been for over ten years ( I prefer Wado though even now) but his applications are for TKD, TSD and different karate styles too. Though there's more people doing Bunkai properly there's still too many who do kata/patterns as a performance without BUnkai, thinking it teaches them balance, stances etc which is rubbish. It teaches SD moves. As I said Iain is also a Judoka so it fits in with the throws and ground moves found in Bunkai. I've trained with him a couple of times and intend to train more with him hopefully even grading.

We will only grade children to red, the brown belt equivalant, we will only have about two gradings a year, no more, plus we make sure the children and their parents aren't belt orientated. We teach a lot of techniques which they will know work when they spar either standing or on the floor so they know they are doing well without racing for belts.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Kids learn front, side, bck and rolling falls . Head, Shoulder, hip and major outer reaping throws. Escape from being mounted back on floor and chest on floor.

 

[dancingalone]

Well, it would be if I still did Wado, I'm TSD now have been for over ten years ( I prefer Wado though even now) but his applications are for TKD, TSD and different karate styles too. Though there's more people doing Bunkai properly there's still too many who do kata/patterns as a performance without BUnkai, thinking it teaches them balance, stances etc which is rubbish. It teaches SD moves. As I said Iain is also a Judoka so it fits in with the throws and ground moves found in Bunkai. I've trained with him a couple of times and intend to train more with him hopefully even grading.

I believe bunkai should retain some flavor of the style at hand. While one can certainly pick up some ideas from watching foreign kata and bunkai from another teacher of another system, I believe it preferable to train in the principles offered by your own art because not only are you promulgating and honoring your own style, you are also more likely to understand and internalize the material. To offer an extreme example, I could show my TKD students some pretty neato stuff I studied from either Goju-ryu karate or Aikido. All it would be however is a demo, because the basics and body training that allow one to eventually execute techniques like these are missing from their TKD training. As a result, I teach them bunkai gleaned from shorin-ryu karate since it is a closer fit, but even that is not ideal since they do not create bodily snap in the same way shorin-ryu people do, so some of the more concussive bunkai I know don't really translate effectively. Ideally, I would teach them bunkai that makes use of their extensive kicking practice...

If Mr. Abernethy is a Wado-ryu & Judo man, he does have a lot to teach. Regardless, the average Shotokan or TKD/TSD person (some of the more closely related arts to Wado) will have difficulty following along with his lessons. They too must blend in some judo/jujutsu basics to make his stuff work for them. And in so doing, they are actually mixing in styles and training themselves to help put together the puzzle. Abernethy's bunkai then serves as a guide of what is possible, rather than the end itself. You undoubtedly fit well with his stuff because you have trained Wado and probably some other grappling systems too.

We will only grade children to red, the brown belt equivalant, we will only have about two gradings a year, no more, plus we make sure the children and their parents aren't belt orientated. We teach a lot of techniques which they will know work when they spar either standing or on the floor so they know they are doing well without racing for belts.

Sounds quite solid. Do you have a list or curriculum on computer media that you can easily copy and paste here?

 

[Tez3]

I believe bunkai should retain some flavor of the style at hand. While one can certainly pick up some ideas from watching foreign kata and bunkai from another teacher of another system, I believe it preferable to train in the principles offered by your own art because not only are you promulgating and honoring your own style, you are also more likely to understand and internalize the material. To offer an extreme example, I could show my TKD students some pretty neato stuff I studied from either Goju-ryu karate or Aikido. All it would be however is a demo, because the basics and body training that allow one to eventually execute techniques like these are missing from their TKD training. As a result, I teach them bunkai gleaned from shorin-ryu karate since it is a closer fit, but even that is not ideal since they do not create bodily snap in the same way shorin-ryu people do, so some of the more concussive bunkai I know don't really translate effectively. Ideally, I would teach them bunkai that makes use of their extensive kicking practice...

If Mr. Abernethy is a Wado-ryu & Judo man, he does have a lot to teach. Regardless, the average Shotokan or TKD/TSD person (some of the more closely related arts to Wado) will have difficulty following along with his lessons. They too must blend in some judo/jujutsu basics to make his stuff work for them. And in so doing, they are actually mixing in styles and training themselves to help put together the puzzle. Abernethy's bunkai then serves as a guide of what is possible, rather than the end itself. You undoubtedly fit well with his stuff because you have trained Wado and probably some other grappling systems too.





Sounds quite solid. Do you have a list or curriculum on computer media that you can easily copy and paste here?

We used to have the syllabus on the website but I can't fnd it at the moment but I'll see if I can find it somewhere.
At the risk of starting an argument which I hope if people disagree we can start another thread, it would be a big shame to take this one off track, I'd say that stand up styles aren't so different from each other, the moves within katas/patterns are the same, maybe portrayed slightly differently but the intent is the same. I've seen the same moves within Wado, Shotokan, TSD and TKD as well as JKD, with much smaller differences than you think. The katas in Shotokan, Wado and TSD are almost the same, they come from the same roots. I can also see other karate styles katas and recognise them as I can with TKD patterns.On Iains seminars are people from all styles including CMAs, he teaches much more than Bunkai, his RBSD is excellent. One thing though that means is we can talk from the same viewpoint!

I've said before though that our children wil only likely be with us for about three years then move on so I try to give them flavours of other martial arts so they can understand what to do if they find themselves in a different style which often happens as they move around. For example we do left fighting stance as left foot forward but I also make sure they can do it with right foot back. We don't do a lot of bowing but they can do as many different types of bow as we can teach them. It's not ideal but it works for our kids.

Break falls are the most important thing for them to learn as far as the groundwork is concerned, I'm jealous because children find it so easy to do, for this frankly, the younger the better! I can only breakfall when thrown I can't and probably never will make myself fall on the floor not even on a crash mat!