the first couple videos from my test

[Twin Fist]

No, I am not going to either. Several reasons.

1-katas get changed all the time

2- i dont sweat the small stuff

3- no way no how am I gonna tell Mr Shelton, who is very possibly the best kata man i have met in 25 years in the arts that his preference is wrong.....

4-lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine. Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement is therefore suspect.

5-i just dont care if anyone OTHER than my linaeage thinks I am doing it right.

sorry if this seems rude, but, well, down in texas we have been doing TKD longer than the rest of the country, and we do it our own way and really? we dont care what anyone outside the family thinks

 

[Tez3]

I note by your profile you are not a Taekwon-Do person. If you were and were familiar with the works by the creator of the Chang Hun patterns of which Se Jong is one(which is not to say he didn't have input from other noteables) as compared to the works by others containing the same material, their is no comparison between the quality of the original a sn subsequent editions vis a vis detail and explanation and the work done by others such as Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho.

Note, this is not to demean other tremendous accomplishents and contributions by Jhoon Rhee and He Il Cho. However, having authoritative and definitive works on these patterns is not one of them.

Aha, my dear sir and there you would be wrong, I actually have a yellow belt in TKD.
I am familiar with all manner of men but pompous ones have never been my favourite.

 

[Twin Fist]

and yet you love me

it's a mystery for the ages

 

[Tez3]

TF, you and I were made for each other.....:jediduel:

 

[Earl Weiss]

No, I am not going to either. Several reasons.

1-katas get changed all the time

2- i dont sweat the small stuff

3- no way no how am I gonna tell Mr Shelton, who is very possibly the best kata man i have met in 25 years in the arts that his preference is wrong.....

4-lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine. Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement is therefore suspect.

5-i just dont care if anyone OTHER than my linaeage thinks I am doing it right.

sorry if this seems rude, but, well, down in texas we have been doing TKD longer than the rest of the country, and we do it our own way and really? we dont care what anyone outside the family thinks

1. This one has been unchanged since 1965. Perhaps longer.

2. You are certainly free to make a judgement call that turning the wrong way and going in the wrong direction, not following the pattern diagram is small stuff.

3. I was not asking you to second gues anyone. In some schools / orgs it is permitted to ask questions (sometimes in private) in a respectful way. Even the best instructors make mistakes. I have even heard gneral Choi say in response to a question "What Book say?" and he wrote it. He said "Even book better than General Choi" acknowledging that the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory. Apparently your group believes the instructor is infallable. You have the right to hold such beliefs. It explains perpetuation of errors.

4. You have a right to your opinion. However, it would be intersting to see if anything on your resume other than what is posted on your resume lends any weight to your opinion from an experiential and educational standpoint. Further, since you learn so many of Gneral Choi's patterns and apparently subscribe to his tenets and other material being critical of General Choi is being critical of yourself as well as your instructors, and your instructors instructors who use the same material.

5. This point is abundantly clear. The difference is that others care what the rest of the world thinks. We might even make some effort to see if constructive criticism is well founded. I apologize for thinking that you fell into this other group. You are also very privileged to have so many people on this forum come to your defense.

 

[Tez3]

1. This one has been unchanged since 1965. Perhaps longer.

2. You are certainly free to make a judgement call that turning the wrong way and going in the wrong direction, not following the pattern diagram is small stuff.

3. I was not asking you to second gues anyone. In some schools / orgs it is permitted to ask questions (sometimes in private) in a respectful way. Even the best instructors make mistakes. I have even heard gneral Choi say in response to a question "What Book say?" and he wrote it. He said "Even book better than General Choi" acknowledging that the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory. Apparently your group believes the instructor is infallable. You have the right to hold such beliefs. It explains perpetuation of errors.

4. You have a right to your opinion. However, it would be intersting to see if anything on your resume other than what is posted on your resume lends any weight to your opinion from an experiential and educational standpoint. Further, since you learn so many of Gneral Choi's patterns and apparently subscribe to his tenets and other material being critical of General Choi is being critical of yourself as well as your instructors, and your instructors instructors who use the same material.

5. This point is abundantly clear. The difference is that others care what the rest of the world thinks. We might even make some effort to see if constructive criticism is well founded. I apologize for thinking that you fell into this other group. You are also very privileged to have so many people on this forum come to your defense.

Oh dear, is that the royal 'we'?

TF's martial arts work. Does he need to slavishly follow your general's words to be able to defend and fight? Are we not living in the free world?
As for defending him, you have no idea how odd it is for me to be defending him lol! However, he and I however politically poles apart are brother and sister under the skin when it comes to martial arts.
Your 'constructive' criticism has come over as far from that but sounds more like a disciple who is following his messiah and is upset because we don't see your messiah as ours. We march to the beat of a different drum.
Who's right and who's wrong? Well the proof is in the pudding, TF can defend himself and fight, does it then matter which way he turns in a pattern?
You don't like it? Live with it.

 

[elder999]

lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine.Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement is therefore suspect.

Not to mention.....

4-lets just say that Choi wanted it the way you claim, ok, fine. Choi also came up with the stupidest thing in the history of TKD-sine wave- his judgement is therefore suspect.

:lol:

 

[Twin Fist]

Earl,
you are clearly very well educated on the history of TKD. Thats very cool.

 

[artFling]

Looking really good....hottie.

Carol, Now you've gone too far. Have your nurses slow your drip way down. And I can't be putting up with TF's big head over being called a....; I can't even repeat it. (See, I have to deal with him in the flesh several times a week). Just cut the drip off altogether; you can't be in that much pain.

 

[Twin Fist]

you know art, sooner or later you are gonna have to spar again........

 

[terryl965]

Earl I have a couple of question for you......


1st thing why is it so important for you to be right with variation of poomsae's? Even the General said let all interpitation be that of the person performing... I have seen variation of almost every poomsae ever done and I do not pass judgement but I ask why this way instead of this and then see if it has any merit.

2nd thing as far as knowing the history of TKD do you include the Okunawa roots that was before the TKD era?

Last thing I have been doing TKD forever and have never seen one individual be on a journey like yours against TF, is this personal? do you know him? What type of TKD do you do the original ITF or a branch off? What kwan linage are you from?

You see so far I am not inpress with what you have said about this and for one starting to believe it is just some jelousy you have and need to find a way to be better than TF. I take poomsae apart and look for other ways to see hidden application. You say the General is always right so this means you have personally trained with him and if so you know how sometimes certain techs changed over the years, not saying anything bad just saying what is the truth. I do almost all of the poomsae's that have been introduce in the circle of TKD both ITF and the WTF and as well as the ATA's so what I saw was a man with great conviction going before a panel and doing the best possible job he could and that is what TKD is about not stopping or quitting but rallying to be the best at that moment. I hope you can see past your little window and see the big picture withen TKD.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Earl I have a couple of question for you......


1st thing why is it so important for you to be right with variation of poomsae's? Even the General said let all interpitation be that of the person performing... I have seen variation of almost every poomsae ever done and I do not pass judgement but I ask why this way instead of this and then see if it has any merit.

2nd thing as far as knowing the history of TKD do you include the Okunawa roots that was before the TKD era?

Last thing I have been doing TKD forever and have never seen one individual be on a journey like yours against TF, is this personal? do you know him? What type of TKD do you do the original ITF or a branch off? What kwan linage are you from?

You see so far I am not inpress with what you have said about this and for one starting to believe it is just some jelousy you have and need to find a way to be better than TF. I take poomsae apart and look for other ways to see hidden application. You say the General is always right so this means you have personally trained with him and if so you know how sometimes certain techs changed over the years, not saying anything bad just saying what is the truth. I do almost all of the poomsae's that have been introduce in the circle of TKD both ITF and the WTF and as well as the ATA's so what I saw was a man with great conviction going before a panel and doing the best possible job he could and that is what TKD is about not stopping or quitting but rallying to be the best at that moment. I hope you can see past your little window and see the big picture withen TKD.

1. I have no issue with people who knowingly perform a variation or interpretation on anything. It is those who mistakenly believe they are properly performing according to the intended structure that should be aware of their error lest they compound or perpetuate the error. It would be like someone thinking theyy are accurately perofrming a song when they are not. Unlike someone knowing the accurate performance and deciding to make a variation. I have been with stiudents who are ITF off shoots and sometimes they know it is a variation. Other times they are cueless. Can you rpovide a reference as to where I might find the statement you reference from Gneral Choi.

2. My point has nothing to do with TF asan individual . He follows the wishes of his seniors and instructors. This is proper. There is a question as whetehr the seniors made a knowing departure from the original.

3. General Choi was not infallable and I question why he chose to do some things a certain way. Reasoneable people can have a difference of opinion . That is fine. In fact there are errors in his books, which he acknowledged and issued technical corrections for in some instances. However, the directions and turns for this pattern have not been corrected or changed. So, if you claim to perform it and follow the pattern diagram, and do something else, there is an issue.

4. My lineage is thru an Cha Kyo, so originaly there was a stong Chung Do Kwan component. My Instructor left GM Han in 1972 or so aand from then we went thru the ITF. My frst instructor course with gneral Choi was in 1990. It was there i could see how many things were not clearly conveyed from person to person otr thru the books over time. I had also learned patterns from books and it was not an ideal situation.

I also explore alternate patter pplications. My favorite works are Bubiushi, works by Rick Clark, Stuart Anslow, Vince Morris and George Dilman along those lines.

4. The Okinawan roots of TKD thru the Shorin and Shaolin systems are set out in General Choi's books. Of course you also have those who feel Shorin was the Okinawan derivation of Shaolin.

Perhaps I have the big picture, perhaps not. Over 35 years in TKD in 4 countries besides the USA and with over 3 dozen different TKD instructors at seminars and camps gives some insight. Then there are the various Ju Jitsu and Hapkido Instructors whose classes i have taken and the pot Purri of other stuff such as Joe Lewis and Bill wallace, Dillman, Oyata, Vince Morris, Peyton Quinns RMCAT, PPCT classes . You can Google my name for my website and excerpts of my resume.

 

[terryl965]

I myself know alot of the same people and have trained in several different countries as well, it just seemed like you was on a personal driven conclusion against TF. If it is not attended that way then I was mis spoken and humblely :asian:. My reference was from a seminar in the late 1980's and it was not an exact qoute but something of that sort. So in all fairness since you explore different approaches to the actual poomsae's why does his turnigthe opposit direction seem to brother you as much and I am glad it is nothing personal about TF.

 

[exile]

Ummm... I'd like to suggest to those who insist on talking about themselves and their experiences and knowledge and contact with impressive names in the history of TKD that this thread isn't about you. It's about looking at some vids of Twin Fist's excellent performance, under fairly challenging real-world conditions, of a basically novel hyung, and about his students' display of the skills they acquired under his guidance, and making observations about what he did, as vs. what he maybe would have done if he'd consulted with his own 8th dan instructor beforehand on why it's not exactly the same as the General said it should be. So with that in mind, maybe we could return to topic? Hmmm?

 

[Earl Weiss]

I myself know alot of the same people and have trained in several different countries as well, it just seemed like you was on a personal driven conclusion against TF. If it is not attended that way then I was mis spoken and humblely :asian:. My reference was from a seminar in the late 1980's and it was not an exact qoute but something of that sort. So in all fairness since you explore different approaches to the actual poomsae's why does his turnigthe opposit direction seem to brother you as much and I am glad it is nothing personal about TF.

To re focus. Twin Fist had a thread "Friigin Sae Jong" or something to that effect expressing his frustration as to how it was laid out. Frankly I found it hard to follow his thoughts from the posted narrative which was (reportedly) from He Il Cho's book. After seeing the performance the source of his frustration, ...very strange turns which are not as the pattern creator intended became clear. The issue then became whether their was an error in the text he was following or an intentional change.

A question that remains unanswered and apparently of no importance to TF which is his privilege.

However, I percieved, apparently wrongly so, that if in fact it were an error in that text that there would be a desire not to perpetuate it.

It bothers me a great deal to see an error perpetuated. (Sorry Exile if it is about me) I feel strongly as an instructor that students should be able to go anywhere in the world and not have people view their performance and wonder "What the Heck are they doing?" To that end, if there is something in an accepted standard that I disagree with I teach the standard, so they know what is expected of them. I also provide my opinion on that standard noting that it is my opinion ad people are free to agree or disagree.

So, again, to refocus. Knowingly exploring alternate approaches is far different than doing something altogether different and not knowing that you are doing something different, not knowing that it deviates markedly from the most widely accepted standard, and perpetuating it as something other than a variation.

 

[Twin Fist]

yes, lets get back to how awesome I am....

 

[seasoned]

What he said.

 

[terryl965]

OK TF here is a question are the one steps pre-arranged or is it something each student must come up with prior to testing?

 

[Twin Fist]

Terry,
good question.

For BB, you need 20 One Steps.The first 8 are set, designed by the instructor. 9-20 have to be self created. All Onesteps and three steps after BB are self created.

 

[dnovice]

this part is my students demonstrating self defense, as part of my belt test.

this me doing Sae Jong. I have a slight balance loss before the one footed 180 degree turn. Of course, I didnt know that turn was in the form untill the night before, more when I get them posted.

Haven't seen too many Kata's but I definitely liked this one. Thanks for sharing.