The "Effectiveness Question" Again...

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Rusty B, Dec 24, 2019.

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  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i'm not changing the frame of my argument, just a minor diversion to point out your claim that the SM was invented in the seventeenth century was wrong, its even more wrong as you age of reason occured in the 18th century the 1700s but i let that slide

    if you've got some other thing that the SM was developed in the 17th century lets see it, all you've othered is some vague memory from your time at college
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but thats superstition, clearly by any definition
     
  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Let's use the 'walking under a ladder' analogy. After trial and error or exposure, have you not figured out that walking under a ladder it a bad idea because something/someone could fall on you, or the ladder itself could fall? This is when superstition simply becomes common sense. Why certain things like this were thought to be a 'superstition' I believe was the innate fear of things that could cause bodily injury.
    Yes, in hindsight many of them are very irrational, such as your salt over the shoulder superstition. Why would you continue to do something that you know is irrational? You continuing to spread the same ideology you have been railing against most of this thread. Irrational.
     
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Please explain.
     
  5. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    be cause i've been indoctrinated as child, much the same reason as you continue to pray i suspect, though i at least admit to its irrationality

    well yes, but the you would decided superstition was common sense, what other conclusion could you come to with your world view

    the reasons ladders are considered unlucky is the breaking of the triangle of the holy trinity
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    There is this awesome thing called the internet. Search, just search. Use SM.
     
  7. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    That may be where the superstition was started, I cannot say. But did you not learn the common sense in not walking under a ladder?
     
  8. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    really, throwing salt over ones shoulder, an irrational belive in the connection between salt and the devil, which obviously also needs an irrational belief in the existence of the devil devil

    praying an irrational belief in the connection between praying and god, that also needs an irrational belief in the existence of god

    both are superstitions,
    a belief in a flat earth which you mocked earlier, is less irrational than either as at least it looks flat
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    of course you cant say, you constantly give opinions with no background knowledge at all
     
  10. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    its not my job to do your research mate,

    its your claim it was invented in the 17th century, thats the 1600s, you back it up
     
  11. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    to get back to my original point, that human beings have a predisposition to believe in superstitions, rather than concluding that its a reasonably explanation to something they cant explain.

    i've noted that superstitious people are generally happier than rational people, clearly part of they is they only have a thin grasp of reality, and even when tragedy strikes they can blame it on, the fact they broke a mirror, are cursed or indeed that its all part of gods plan. this seems easier than acceptance that its all random chance with no purpose to there suffering at all
    once you accept that neither you nor some deity have any power at all over your life, it can be a bit depressing
     
  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Actually, we don't know there's no false causality, simply because there're so few incidents of coincidence. Confirmation bias tends to make the infrequency of coincidence less obvious. On top of that, our brains tend to apply greater signficance to coincidence that is highly emotional (relatively speaking). Thus, if someone has something bad happen to them after walking under a ladder, they may ascribe it to them walking under the ladder.

    Or, it may be that the superstition about ladders is just an overextension of justifiable caution. Things fall off ladders more often than places where ladders are not, so your chances of injury go up if you go around walking under ladders (especially if those happen to be occupied at the time). Some superstitions are just this - extensions of good sense into nonsense.

    Once a superstition has been formed, that's when other processes take over. One is the passing it along (as you mentioned). The next generation doesn't have that false causality - just the shared superstition, usually learned as a child. Sometimes folks will rationalize their superstition to hold onto it, and other times they'll revise their beliefs as the lack of causal link becomes clear.
     
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  13. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    as i explained above people who don't walk under ladders as they believe it unlucky, have no causality false or otherwise as they never walk under ladders

    mostly people would considered walking across the road with your eyes closed to be ill advised, they don't regard people who do this as unlucky, just stupid if they get run over, hence there's no walking about blind is unlucky superstition
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    As I said, some superstitious beliefs are passed along - the false causality came much earlier.
     
  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well you may have top prove that, again as above the ladder issue arises not from a fear of ladders but a fear of breaking a triangle, this representing the holy trinity, so that would need you to show that someone broke t5he triangle of the holly trinity and suffered some miss fortune, leading to this belief, can you do that ? that's why even to this day you very seldom see a triangle doorway

    ive convinced several generations of children that killing spiders is very unlucky, as many of these now have kids of their own i'm supposing that this supersticion made up by me with no causality at all has maybe been passed on, i just like spiders
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  16. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sometimes superstitions are just fun, kind of tongue in cheek. Which is why the superstition of getting uppercutted while not really meaning what one is saying or writing can be painful.

    So that's the superstition I'm starting right now. I can't wait to tell some children. :)
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    As I said above, people do not walk under ladders if they have even a modicum of common sense. It has nothing to do with 'feeling' unlucky. If they choose to walk under a ladder it is because of a lack of common sense, naivete, or a calculated risk.
    I understand that the superstition is thousand's of years old but we are not. What this particular superstition meant 5000 years ago has zero bearing today.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You, as usual, are ignoring the actual point. And it’s not worth trying to guide you there.
     
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  19. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    but sup erscitions are irrational, if it's not irrational it's not a superstition.

    you seem a about as gullible as it's possible to be and not be institutionalised and even you dont believe walking under ladders brings you bad luck u
     
  20. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I'm not ignoring it, you've joined the other guy in making claims you cant back up,

    it's a simple task if what you say is true to prove it,123
     
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