The definition of a McDojo!!

[BrandonLucas]

Well, to be fair, Dilman has been outed numerous times as someone of questionable knowledge...I'm not sure if his school is a McDojo or not, but I would say that his instruction isn't up to par.

I still say that there's a difference between a McDojo and a just plain bad school. A school can be a McDojo and still offer decent instruction...and a school can have bad instruction and not be a McDojo.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I still say that there's a difference between a McDojo and a just plain bad school. A school can be a McDojo and still offer decent instruction...and a school can have bad instruction and not be a McDojo.

And that is the heart of the matter. On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.

To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee. Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant. A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.

And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well. Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar. Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds. But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).

By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less. And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school. If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.

Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open. Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).

Daniel

 

[BrandonLucas]

And that is the heart of the matter. On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.

To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee. Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant. A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.

And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well. Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar. Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds. But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).

By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less. And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school. If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.

Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open. Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).

Daniel

I agree with what you're saying here. The only thing I would change is that...and this is strictly my opinion, so there's really no right or wrong with what you're saying or what I'm saying...to me, McDojo's tend to be the schools that shoot over the top with their prices and requirements.

If more than one school adopts the same marketing method, to me, it's simply a "sister school" and is good business. Keeps everything equal across the board.

But McDojo's, on the other hand...while they still have the chain marketing concept, the prices tend to be over the top, and their merchandise is considered a requirement for the students to own, and can only be purchased at that school or one of it's affiliates.

So, I'm in agreement with you as far as it being good business to keep the same marketing plan for a chain of schools....but it needs to be done sensibly. Going over the top makes it stick out in a bad way, thusly becoming a McDojo.

But this is all my opinion on the subject.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Most of the schools out my way, McDojo or not, tend to stay within a particular price range, which is between eighty and a hundred and fifty a month. Our school is in the low-middle of that range. Some are towards the top, others right at the bottom. The area simply won't sustain a school that deviates substantially in the high end; even though the area is wealthy, the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price. They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price. They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.

Daniel

That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.

 

[terryl965]

Most of the schools out my way, McDojo or not, tend to stay within a particular price range, which is between eighty and a hundred and fifty a month. Our school is in the low-middle of that range. Some are towards the top, others right at the bottom. The area simply won't sustain a school that deviates substantially in the high end; even though the area is wealthy, the one bit of research that customers in this area do for MA is shop price. They may not be able to distinguish between an ATA 6 year old black belt and a Kyoshukin karate black belt adult, but they sure do know when the price is way out of line, lol.

Daniel

Yes they shop for price and not quality, that is a big problem. With us at 75.00 a month for unlimited we are below the going rate on the everage of 135.00 and that is three time a week. Most see us as not that good because the price is lower than other schools and they are tiny compared to size wise. We have 7600 sqaure feet and they have around 1500 sqaure feet. Society puts up these rediculas prices and then wonder about legit schools.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.

Personally, I think that all the martial arts schools with an "afterschool" program in our area ought to make afterschool programs cost 80% of what the average daycare center costs for the same service. Then the parents would still get a savings and the dojo could make enough, not only to have actual licensed staff dedicated to the afterschool program, but to generate a good healthy profit in addition that could go to hiring and appropriately compensating the very best instructors.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

That is kinda sad, because most of teh parents are doing it as a form of babysitting, and the cheapest MA school, makes a great babysitter.

This is not true we are cheaper by about 50.00 a month but the other schools have all those patches and belt test every month and that is why thy are there to be Kararte moms just like all those soccor moms.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes they shop for price and not quality, that is a big problem. With us at 75.00 a month for unlimited we are below the going rate on the everage of 135.00 and that is three time a week. Most see us as not that good because the price is lower than other schools and they are tiny compared to size wise. We have 7600 sqaure feet and they have around 1500 sqaure feet. Society puts up these rediculas prices and then wonder about legit schools.

One of the problems is that they don't know how to shop for quality in a martial arts school, though I do feel that they could learn if they really wanted to. But if all the parents want is a cheap afterschool program, 135/month is but a small fraction of what an actual daycare center costs. Which is why I feel as I stated in my above post.

The other problem is that a lot of teens and adults want the belts and the rank but without the hard work and are willing to pay for the priviledge. And that is actually much, much more sad than the whole dojo daycare.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

One of the problems is that they don't know how to shop for quality in a martial arts school, though I do feel that they could learn if they really wanted to. But if all the parents want is a cheap afterschool program, 135/month is but a small fraction of what an actual daycare center costs. Which is why I feel as I stated in my above post.

The other problem is that a lot of teens and adults want the belts and the rank but without the hard work and are willing to pay for the priviledge. And that is actually much, much more sad than the whole dojo daycare.

Daniel

This is so true.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

This is not true we are cheaper by about 50.00 a month but the other schools have all those patches and belt test every month and that is why they are there to be Kararte moms just like all those soccor moms.

Actually, I think that the patches are a great thing. Use patches instead of constant belts. Kid does great, he gets another gold star on his collar. A little girl has perfect attendance, she gets another stripe on her sleeve. Both do well in competitions? A chevron on the sleeves. Academic achievement? A blue star on the collar. All this without a belt test and perhaps also keeping the quantity of belts fairly low. I'd rather have the students look like Christmas trees than give them rank for which they are not ready and keeps them in my school.

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

I am in one of the more expensive schools in the area ($235 a month for both me and my son) and that doesn't include testing. It does include, however, dobak, patches and for an additional $25 a month they have the afterschool programme for my son. We both have unlimited classes and we test every 3 months for the gups, and 6 months for the dans. I'm not saying that cheap schools are bad. My Judo dojo charges me $20 a month for two, 2 hour classes a week. I just think, around here at least, the cheaper schools just become babysitters for the Suzy Soccer Moms' unruly children. And more often than not, I have found, they tend to churn out people with limited martial knowledge, and bad attitudes to go with it.

"KOBRA KAI!!"

 

[Tez3]

My kids don't grade that often only when they are ready, they don't get badges either, what they get is a heartfelt well done and well tried when merited. Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!

 

[kidswarrior]

Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!

Rebel! :lol:

 

[jks9199]

And that is the heart of the matter. On TKDspace, I have a blog about the idea of the McDojo (two or three actually) and anyone is more than free to view it; the link to my TKDspace profile is in my signature, and there, I'm still the Celtic Tiger.

To sum it up, the thing that makes McDonalds so commercially successful is that each franchisee follows the exact same business model to a tee. Nothing is changed from restaurant to restaurant. A Big Mac tastes the same in Gaithersburg as it does in Tysons Corner VA as it does in Saint Louis Missouri as it does in Dublin Ireland.

And while McDonald's foot isn't all that great, the same model has been used in better restaurants and works well. Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, Applebees, the now sadly defunct Bennigans, and Chilles all use essentially the same business model as one another: American Burger joints where a meal at one place roughly equates a meal at any of the others, memorabilia all over the walls, and a sports bar. Nobody would argue that the food at these places is of a much higher caliber than McDonalds. But they all use the exact same burger joint business model (same as eachother, not same as McDonalds for those unfamiliar with the plaves I mentioned).

By the same token, a McDojo is a business model; nothing more and nothing less. And like any business model, if it is staffed with lousy personnel, then it will be a lousy school. If it is staffed with qualified personnel who care about what they're doing, then it will be a good school.

Personally, I see the McDojo model as actually being a good thing if the school has decent instruction: since the McDojo model is profitable, it keeps a good school open. Now, this is assuming that they don't take the business end way over the top and charge stupid fees (such as one school I'd read about that charged 4500 dollars to get to green belt).

Daniel

Great post.

But it begs the question: must the business model equate to bad instruction, 8 or 10 year old "black belts" and the other problems of the McDojo?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Great post.

But it begs the question: must the business model equate to bad instruction, 8 or 10 year old "black belts" and the other problems of the McDojo?

Technically, it doesn't have to, but somehow it always seems to go that direction.

Daniel

 

[CDKJudoka]

My kids don't grade that often only when they are ready, they don't get badges either, what they get is a heartfelt well done and well tried when merited. Kids love it, I don't care what the parents think lol!

Well, if they aren't ready to test, either by what they feel, or what the instructors feel, they aren't forced to. We do have patches, but that is for merits with helping other students, if they are an advanced belt.

Currently my son is an 8th Gup and I am 1st Dan level 1.

 

[Tez3]

Rebel! :lol:

Ta! I've only got this way over the past couple of weeks after being shouted at by parents! First the two mums who were upset at their daughters not grading, then by another mother who said she hadn't been told about the grading yet her husband had earlier told me their son couldn't come because he was doing something they couldn't cancel and then by the father who demanded a suit for the grading fee of a few quid instead of buying one!
then there's the parents who slunk out of the door when our pro fighter came in....because he does the doors in our local nightclub and he threw them out and watched them get arrested for fighting (each other) TWICE! there's the parents who talk all through the lessons so that I have to give them the look so they keep quiet, and.... well you get the idea lol!
We have some good parents though!

 

[dancingalone]

Technically, it doesn't have to, but somehow it always seems to go that direction.

Daniel

I said this in another thread, but I believe using McDojo marketing methods inevitably causes your school to dive quality-wise simply because of the type of students you will draw in. It's a painful thought I know, but nonetheless it's true in my opinion.

If you need to make money from your school, go ahead and run a McDojo; there's nothing wrong with capitalism. I like the french fries from MickeyD's myself.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I said this in another thread, but I believe using McDojo marketing methods inevitably causes your school to dive quality-wise simply because of the type of students you will draw in. It's a painful thought I know, but nonetheless it's true in my opinion.

If you need to make money from your school, go ahead and run a McDojo; there's nothing wrong with capitalism. I like the french fries from MickeyD's myself.

I think that in order for the McDojo model to succeed in a good school, it must be a trend in the area to have good instruction with a McDojo model. That way, the expectations are higher on the part of the incoming students. Once again, that is sadly not the case.

Daniel