The case for Judo as a self-defense system...

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by TMA17, May 26, 2019.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    We have to admit that there are something missing in a pure wrestling art, or a pure striking art. How to fill that hole is the concern that all MMA instructors (or Sanda instructors) will be interested in.

    In this match, the wrestler did very good. But since the rule did not allow head punch, it's toward the wrestler's advantage.


     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Having judo is different to trying to learn it in 8 weeks or whatever.

    And I think that is where the disconnect lies. You see super Judo go out and wreck fools. And then you try it and get choked out.

    I mean I am working on handstand and cartwheel kicks at the moment. Top guys can wreck people with them. But no matter if I became a master at it. I still wouldn't suggest someone who may get in to a fight in 8 weeks ever uses it.

     
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  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Only sort of.

    What you are suggesting here is a sensible shift in the order of priorities.

    But is almost always used as an argument for doing a bunch of dumb stuff that wouldn't work under any conditions.

    Like arm bar wizzers and stuff.

    Otherwise there are guys like the Trillo academy that do some nice police variations.



    Now this is still pretty much competition BJJ except the order of priorities has changed.

    That is important because then you are not using LARP elements to make your techniques work.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The primary defense Judo has against a punch is their strong entry. You see strong entries used by grapplers in MMA to get inside strikers on a regular basis.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    His statement is based on his experience, but you've depended mostly upon the argument from authority in citing that quote. You haven't presented much in the way of actual reasons why sport-oriented arts (not to be confused with the actual sport competition, which you seem to have done) are such a bad choice for SD. If he made good points in his article, cite them.

    The sport of Judo isn't the whole of Judo (nor is the sport of BJJ the whole of BJJ). Judo was designed to include sport, but included - at inception - specific techniques for self-defense. Not sure how you don't know that if you've actually looked into it at any length.

    Yeah, you really don't know much about traditional Judo. Nor have you presented much evidence that sport training (remember, my Judo training didn't include the goshin waza that are part of tradtional Judo) should automatically fail in a SD situation.

    Here's what you've missed in your knee-jerk reaction: I teach a SD-oriented system, and don't train for sport. And you can't even convince me. See, there are definitely opportunities for a gap if you only train for sport. But that's not the totality of Judo, at all. And even if that were the totality, there's a really good argument (@drop bear makes it well) that training for and participating in sport is a good way to develop skills that will translate to the street.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That one always shuts me up. :eek:
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A quick note (and really, I'm not poking at you here) - you've crossed up the two threads we're discussing in. The BJJ thread is the one focused on LEO.
     
  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    On the original question of Judo vs BJJ for self-defense, a lot depends on how it is taught. Old school BJJ has a pretty sound methodology for dealing with strikes and other common untrained attacks as well as a reasonably effective takedown game. I don't think I've ever trained at a Judo school where they actually practiced sparring against punches. Given the choice of a classic BJJ school and a Judo school that only trains for sport, I'd take the BJJ school.

    On the other hand, more and more BJJ schools seem to train just for tournament competition and neglect takedowns and dealing with strikes. Given the choice between one of those and a decent Judo dojo, I'd go for the Judo.

    Since I've never seen or trained at a Judo dojo that had a strong self-defense focus, I can't evaluate how good their methodology might be. I've seen judoka who can definitely fight, but I don't know the training methodology that got them there.
     
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  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Explanations as to why sport doesn't work pretty much after being directly bashed by a sports fighter.

     
  11. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Done that with my BJJ. It's still just BJJ.
    Done that. It's still just BJJ.
    Done that. It's a fun exercise and helps with mental flexibility. (Can't really spar full out on stairs without someone getting hurt though.) It's still 90-95% the same fundamentals with 5-10% situational adjustment. The important thing is to develop usable foundational skills and then you can periodically try them out in various environments to get used to adapting as necessary.
    Every training environment has controls and rules that your training partners abide by. That's how we don't all end up in the hospital after every training session.

    I think a better way of expressing your point would be "Don't always train in the same environment and with the same rule set. Mix it up and see what changes."

    BTW - the advantage of working on mats is that you can train much longer and harder and thereby develop more functional skill. Suppose you want to be able to throw someone onto the ground. You're going to start with drilling the throw on a cooperative partner - hundreds of reps, thousands if you want to get really good at it. Then you're going to have go live, sparring against a resisting opponent. Lots of hours doing that and often the throws won't end up being as safe and controlled because your opponent is fighting you the whole way.

    I think you're going to have a difficult time finding a training partner who is going to be willing to take thousands of hard falls on concrete.

    Done that. I'll freely admit that BJJ is an unarmed fighting art, so I draw from other sources (mostly FMA) when using weapons. I do make good use of my BJJ when clinching or tied up on the ground with someone who has a weapon.
    Done that. I do have to say that, regardless of the system you are training, fighting one against many is very low percentage unless you have superior weaponry or vastly superior skills and physical attributes. Usually the best option is to survive, disengage, and run.
    De-escalation is really important and I've been moderately successful at it over the years. However, I've trained with hundreds of instructors from dozens of arts over the years and I don't think any of them had any special qualifications to teach de-escalation skills. I think it's hard to find individuals who have legitimate skills and experience in de-escalation and also know how to teach those skills in a systematic way. Finding someone who can teach those skills in a manner appropriate for a civilian self-defense context (as opposed to application for a LEO, doorman, social worker, etc) is even harder. Anyway, those skills don't necessarily have to be bundled with a specific martial art.
    I've worked on that, although it really isn't something specific to any particular martial art. You can practice situational awareness with your Karate, Judo, Wing Chun, BJJ, Bujinkan Taijutsu, Kali, Tae Kwon Do, Boxing, MMA, whatever.
     
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  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    That raises another issue. You can't just train it. It also has to actually work.

    And so you need some way of determining if it works.

    And that is super hard.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Great post, Tony. Especially good points about de-escalation and situational awareness. I've personally been looking at those again lately, looking for some way to do something valuable with them.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That is the hardest part. Role-playing is just another kind of training with a compliant partner.
     
  15. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Is that just common sense such as stay away from trouble? Do you really need to train it?
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I wouldn't think you'd need to, but I've learned a thing or two and had some interesting "aha!" reactions from folks when I discussed the topic. So, there is some value in teaching it, if you can manage to teach valid stuff (hard to verify) in a way that people actually learn in a way they can apply (harder to verify).
     
  17. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's harder to stay away from trouble if you don't see it coming.
     
  18. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There are instructions on how to use a toothpick. I've heard of a job where someone just tells people to look straight on an elevator so they don't accidentally fall off or trip at the bottom. Some things that really shouldn't need to be trained, do.
     
  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Best post I’ve read here in quite a long time.

    There’s a difference between learning techniques and learning principles. Individual techniques don’t work under many different scenarios. Principles work under just about all scenarios.
     
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  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    When Shuai-Chiao (SC) has integrated kick and punch into it, it's called Combat Shuai-Chiao (CSC).123
     

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