The brawling roundhouse...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hudson69, Dec 31, 2009.

  1. Hudson69

    Hudson69 Brown Belt

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    A friend and fellow LEO Combatives Instructor and I were talking about your typical unskilled bar fighter. We determined (through less than air-tight study) that most brawlers throw roundhouses/hay-makers and begin to do so well before they are in actual striking range.

    After coming to this monumental conclusion we also determined that most LEO's and MA's (he is a Krav instructor and has a MMA background - amatuer fighter) through straight punches and practice (more) for the straight, or nearly straight punch.

    Just a thought, any comments?
     
  2. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    While it has been my experience that most unskilled combatants will resort to hay-maker style punches, it is always a dangerous assumption to presume that the man in front of you is unskilled.

    The good news about hay-makers, is that those who throw them, especially the intoxicated (which are the most likely to start such a fight) set themselves up and telegraph........that having been said, even a hay-maker from a 220 pound construction worker can knock you on your pins if you aren't careful.

    It's one reason I think anyone interested in really defending themselves should learn boxing........not necessarily even for the offensive striking (which is good) but because it gives one a sensitivity to punching and being punched that allows one to 'read' another person throwing a punch far better than simply observing the phenomenon.........after hours and hours of sparring one develops a sensitivity to the way other people move, hold their hands, set themselves up, etc, etc, etc.
     
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  3. Jimi

    Jimi Black Belt

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    I agree. Good boxing training and other arts as well will instill in a practioner with the sence of when, how & where a punch (attack) may be coming from.

    While as a teen I also trained w/ an Amateur Boxing Fed. Coach who was also a Black Belt in an Okinawan system of Karate & was friend w/ my 1st Instructor. After a few months of Boxing work, while sparring in our Martial Arts class, I slipped a few punches as instructed by Coach Nader. This surprised my fellow classmates. My Instructor asked, "How did you know to avoid those punches like that?" I said "I don't know, I just smelled them coming" LOL.
     
  4. Telfer

    Telfer Green Belt

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    I guess intoxication lends itself to round strikes!

    I dont know...are most KOs made with round or straight punches?

    The ones that get me are straight and short...traveling no more than 12 inches to my face.
     
  5. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Untrained and intoxicated= round, sober and trained= straight and short, if trained properly=avoidance.[​IMG]
     
  6. l_uk3y

    l_uk3y Green Belt

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    The KO punchs are the accurate ones you don't see coming IMO. Seen many a straight and round knock out. Just need to get the surprise shot that slips through and hits the right spot.

    LOL re intoxication leading to round strikes. I guess if you cant walk straight you shouldnt be able to punch straight either.
     
  7. Gordon Nore

    Gordon Nore Senior Master

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    Agreed with everything said, especially sgtmac's comment...

    When training for self-defense, my instructors always warned us about not only intoxicated or unskilled fighters throwing haymakers, but also that even good fighters will resort to this in the stress of combat. We did a lot of drills defending from haymakers.
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    QFT!!!! IMO, I get the impression from some people that I've seen training, that they have no interest in the contact, which is a huge part in every art. Better to make the mistakes and get the feel for things in the safety of the dojo, rather than find out when your butt is on the line.

    Between people throwing half assed punches, ones that either never make it to their target because they're stopped short and even if they do make it to their target, it feels like a fly landed on you, rather than a punch, I think alot of people could benefit from the contact found in boxing.
     
  9. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    This reminds me of sparring with newbies. IMO, those people are more dangerous than the more skilled students, for the simple fact that chances are, we're going to know what the typical advanced person will throw, vs. someone whos never sparred before. They're more unpredictable.

    I think the same thing applies here. Rather than train for what is more unpredictable, the 'training' kicks in, thus resulting in the more 'conditioned' response, which is the straight punch.
     
  10. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    I like to think it's one reason no one has ever punched me on the street......not because many of them didn't want to, but because, as someone who has boxed, I never let them 'set up' or get positioned to throw a punch. As soon as I sensed it, I either stayed outside of their range, or aggressively entered their range moved to grapple them to the ground.

    At the same time, i've never had to use my offensive boxing skills on the job, though it's nice and comforting to have them if I ever do........mainly it's the sensitivity to people's movements and attempts at position, and it shouldn't go without saying, the SENSITIVITY TO RANGE, that boxing has developed that has benefited me the most, and what I think would benefit many self-defense oriented martial arts.

    It's a fundamental part of human nature that human beings fight with their hands. While we train to apply the vast array of other tools we have available, the natural default human weapon seems to be the fist, and it's what the untrained nearly always rely on, and even the well trained often default to.
     
  11. seasoned

    seasoned MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Good points, distancing is an art unto itself. It is always the untrained, or intoxicated, that want to get right in your face. With their own distancing in question, it seems they like to tap you on the chest 1 or 2 times, if you let them, just before they send the thunder.
     
  12. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    True enough!

    Distancing and proper angulation, never allowing them to square up on you, is key to staying safe.

    Oddly enough, I suspect that many potential assailants can 'sense' this, and sense that they never really have a shot for a sucker punch, and so don't attempt it......I think a lot of folks who find themselves the victim of such an assault, including many officers, simply didn't realize they were in the zone.........I don't hang out 'In the zone'.
     
  13. Guardian

    Guardian Black Belt

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    I love reading all the comments.

    Here is my comment, I not worried about polls, survey's, studies or any of that stuff, what I'm worried about irregardless of the type of punch or how much they have had to drink or not is can I avoid and counter and if I can't for whatever reason, is this going to leave a mark.:)
     
  14. Em MacIntosh

    Em MacIntosh 3rd Black Belt

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    I've always found training to defend yourself against people who throw haymakers to be unrealistic. I consider it like training against an overhand stab in knife defense rather than the sewing machine. Not to say it's useless to train but the spirit doesn't seem to be there.
     
  15. kidswarrior

    kidswarrior Senior Master

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    True dat. Hadn't realized how much my ancient boxing training has played in keeping me safe till I read this.
     
  16. Telfer

    Telfer Green Belt

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    I wish my sparring partners would throw more haymakers, and give me an opening wide enough to drive a death star through...or at least my right elbow!
     
  17. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

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    I have come to similar conclusions recently. Definately two to look out for. Bobbing weaving and direct entry are some of the best responses.

    j
     
  18. Em MacIntosh

    Em MacIntosh 3rd Black Belt

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    I know situations come in all shapes and sizes but a haymaker is asking for a stop-hit to the general face area.
     
  19. kaizasosei

    kaizasosei Master Black Belt

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    Most fighters do not keep in mind the danger of haymaker and drive in general. This results in dangerous situations due to the poor distancing of upper and lower body.

    When someone is close and throws a haymaker it may be too late to enter. But i think the point that was made was that the moves can be seen early if one looks out for them(for example through training or actually getting hit!). The effectiveness of the technique relies on a kind of surprise factor employing the unawareness of the target. Actually it can be observed that skilled fighters will know the trick of luring the victim into tunnel linear vision with lowering head or tricks with arms or feet and signaling for a direct entry. Direct being body to body. Then the haymaker comes out of the blue and the range can also be altered to some extent so that there is a relatively large target spot available to be struck. Basically, a direct hit but in a circular way.
    However if one looks out for the haymaker, it should be possible to bob out of the way or weave to one side only with the upper body for extra speed and then of course follow with lower body for correct distance and grounding..we are talking about most likely starting off in more or less standing normally, the key is to follow the motion exactly and know which side it is coming from(=)
    for roundhouse i think hard blocks, blocks and counter kicks to kicking leg as well as sidestepping and entering are in order.



    This also is true for driving and grappling. That is why simple moves like single and double leg takedowns, tackles work.


    j
     
  20. sgtmac_46

    sgtmac_46 Senior Master

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    I agree........train to deal with straight punches, hooks and upper cuts, and you should be just fine dealing with haymakers.

    The danger of haymarkers is not paying attention and not seeing them coming........they are devastating if you didn't see them coming.........that's why SITUATIONAL AWARENESS is the single most important survival skill........it's the one you DON'T see coming out of left field that renders you unconscious.123
     

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