Discussion in 'Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts' started by PhotonGuy, Jun 4, 2015.
To be honest I can't imagine any Jewish person saying 'verily, verily'.
Frankly, I can't imagine anyone "actually" saying 'verily, verily'
That is interesting. Would a jew of today, or a jew in the time of Christ be likely to say 'amen, amen?' I am guessing that the Greek amen is a transliteration of the Hebrew. Does that sound right?
Na then, this is part of the Yorkshire version of the Bible, yes a real 'translation' and it can be bought. If you have seen the television series All Creatures Great and Small, this is how the farmers and locals talk so it was done for people like them, James Herriot was a local vet here and the series filmed here too. Enjoy.
One day Moses were art and abart tending to sheep at edge of desert near Horeb when dead sudden like this bush sets on fire."By eck!" says Moses. "A burning bush what int burning."
"Aye up Moses," says this Angel of God who were int bush. "How's tha bin?"
"Aye up Angel," says Moses. "What's tha want?"
"Don't come any closer," says Angel. "Else tha'll get thi sen scorched bi power of God. And tha can tek thi shoes off an'all while tha's at it cos tha's on Holy ground."
Well Moses were fair taken aback I can tell thi. Int every day what a Angel appears in a bush is it? And he were so scared as he daren't look.
"Nar then," Angel says. He were talking for God see so he says, "I am God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, tha knows."
And then he says, dead serious like, he says,
"I've seen what's bin goin on in Egypt like, and I've come to put record straight. Am goin to tek people of Israel out on Egypt and tek 'em to a place what's got land flowing wi' milk and honey and all that stuff. This is place where Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites live. I've heard them Israel lot weepin' and that," says Angel. "And I know what them Egyptians have bin up to. So am goin to send thi to Pharaoh and tha's goin to demand as he lets 'em all go."
Well Moses blinks a bit nar dunt he.
"Tha must be joking!" says Moses. "Am not man for a job like that!"
And God says,
"Stop whittlin Moses. Am goin to be with thi so don't fret. And when tha gets free tha can come and worship me on this mountain here."
Well Moses has a think abart this, like tha would, and he says,
"If I go to people of Israel and tell 'em that God's sent me they'll say, 'Gi'ooer! What God are tha talking abart?' And then where will I be eh?"
"Tell 'em that I Am has sent thi."
"I am what?" says Moses.
"I am The I Am," says God.
"Shall we start at beginning," says Moses. "Only tha's lost me somewhere."
"Just...just tell 'em Moses! Tell 'em that t'old God of their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob has sent thi. Get all t'old folk, them elders of Israel and tell 'em abart Jehovah appearing to thi in a bush and that I telt thi to tell 'em as I've seen what's bin goin on. And I'm goin to rescue 'em and tek 'em to a land wi' milk and honey and stuff."
"Oh ah," Moses says. "I can imagine how that'll go darn."
"Ah well," says God. "Let me finish. Them elders have got to go wi' thi to King of Egypt and tell him Jehovah, God of Hebrews has met thi and told thi to go three days out into desert and mek a sacrifice and tha wants permission to go. "
Well Moses weren't dead chuffed abart this I can tell thi and God tells him a bit more.
"King of Egypt's dead stubborn and he'll not let thi go less he's under a bit of pressure like. So I'll put pressure on him summat rotten. I'll duff up Egypt a bit and by time am through they'll be giving thi gold and food and all manner of stuff just to see back of thi."
Well Moses has a think abart all this and he still int happy.
"They won't believe me will they? They'll think am reet rarnd bend if I tell 'em I saw God in a bush."
"Ah well, we'll soon sort that," says God. "See that shepherd's staff tha's holding?"
"Throw it darn ont ground."
And as soon as it hit ground it turned into a snake!
"Chuffin' hell a snake!" says Moses and he legged it.
"Nar pick it up by it's tail," says God.
"Thee pick it up," says Moses.
"Nar stop messin abart Moses," says God. "Pick it up."
So Moses, dead careful like, he grabs this snake by its tail and quick as owt it were a wooden staff again.
"By eck," says Moses. "That were a good'un."
"That's nowt," says God. "Tha wants to see what I can do wi' bread and fish. But...anyhow. If tha does that wi' stick then they'll believe thi. And if that dunt convince 'em then put thi hand inside thi shirt."
Well Moses does this and waits a bit.
"Nar pull it art again," says God. And when Moses pulled it art again it were all white wi' leprosy and that put wind up Moses I can tell thi. Then God told him to do it again and when he pulled it art again it were good as new.
"And if they don't believe them two miracles then cop a load of this one. This is one of me favourites," says God. "Tek some water from river Nile and pour it onto dry land and it'll turn to blood."
Well Moses were impressed but he still weren't happy.
"Am just not right man for job luv," says Moses. "I ant got a way wi' words and I can't speak to loads of folk. I get nervous and me gob goes all wobbly."
"Gi'ooer!" says God. "Int it me what meks gobs? Int it me what meks a man speak reet well or not? Nar get thi sen off and do as I telt thi and I'll help thi to speak well."
"Am not reet happy abart this," says Moses. "Can't tha send someone else."
"By eck Moses!" says God. He were getting angry nar. "Tha dunt arf go on! I'll tell thi what. Thi brother Aaron has a good gob on him. I'll tell thi what to do and tha can tell Aaron and then he can tell folk. How's that suit thi?"
"Ah, fair enough," says Moses. "But there's folk in Egypt who want me dead."
"Don't fret abart that," says God. "They all snuffed it a long time back."
And so off he goes wi' his staff and he tells his father inlaw Reuel abart goin back to Egypt to see a few relatives. (Abart fotty thousand by all accounts.) And t'old man gives him permission to tek his lass and a donkey or two. And so Aaron and Zipporah and Moses wi' his 'Staff of God' all set off back to Egypt.
When they got there they got all them elders of Israel to have a reet big council meeting. Aaron told 'em what Jehovah had said to Moses and Moses went and showed 'em that business wi' stick and t'old leprosy.
And they were impressed I can tell thi. They went darn ont knees straight off and they were all praying like good'uns.
Then comes exciting bit see. They all marched off and went to see Pharaoh. And they told him straight.
"We come wi' a message from Jehovah, God of Israel! And He says, Let my people go cos they've got to go art and mek a sacrifice int desert like."
"Is that so!" Pharaoh says. He weren't much bothered by all this lot. "And who's this Jehovah bloke that I should listen to him eh? I don't know nobody called Jehovah and I'll not let people of Israel go anywhere neither."
But Aaron and Moses kept on at him.
"God of Israel met us," they said.
"Oh ah," says Pharaoh. "Where?"
"In a bush."
"In a bush!" Pharaoh says, and he has a job on not to laugh. "Tha's telling me tha's got a God what hangs abart in a bush?"
"Aye, well, but that's not important. We've got to tek a three day trip into wilderness and mek a sacrifice to God. If we don't obey we're in big bother."
Well Pharaoh weren't having none of this.
"Get thi sen off back to work! Who does tha think tha's kiddin wi' all this Jehovah stuff."
And as soon as they'd gone Pharaoh tells his task masters to mek Israelis really sweat and mek 'em work twice as hard as normal.
"They must have nowt to do or they wouldn't be goin on abart daft things like goin art to wilderness to mek sacrifices. Don't give 'em any more straw for bricks but mek sure they come up wi' right quota. That'll keep 'em occupied. That'll teach 'em to listen to them trouble makers Aaron and Moses."
Well over next few days them Egyptians gave Hebrews a right pasting. They were whipping 'em and hitting 'em and shouting abart quotas all time.
"Tha's got to mek same number of bricks as before!" they shouted. "But tha's getting no more straw so it's just tough intit luv."
And it got so bad as foremen went to see Pharaoh.
"Tha can't keep treating us like this," they said. "We ant got no straw so we can't mek same number of bricks and then them taskmaster blokes lay into us wi' whips and stuff. It int right."
And Pharaoh says,
"Well that's just tough luck me old luv," he says dead smarmy. "Tha can't have enough to do or tha wouldn't be on abart daft things like goin to desert to mek a sacrifice. Nar get this sen off afore I lose me temper."
Then when foremen saw Moses and Aaron they had narks on and they set abart 'em.
"Tha's a right daft chuff thee," they said. "Tha's dropped us right in it wi' Pharaoh goin an abart goin to mek a sacrifice. Tha's give him excuse to kill all job lot on us."
Nar Moses were a bit upset abart this, as tha would be, and he has a chat wi' God again.
"Nar then," says Moses. "What's tha go and send me here for if tha's goin to do nowt? How can tha treat thi own folk like this? It int right. There weren't no point sending me here int first place. Since I've gone and told Pharaoh what tha said he's bin like a bear wi' a sore bum. There's folk getting beat up every day and tha's done nowt."
But God weren't bothered by all this cos He had a plan and He knew what He were doing. And when God's got a plan tha'd best watch thi sen.
"Now tha'll see what am goin to do to Pharaoh," He says. "Am goin to force him to let thi go. He'll want thi to go so bad he'll kick thi art of Egypt. I am Jehovah, God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and I promised 'em I'd make land of Canaan theirs and I will an'all. So get thi sen off and tell descendants of Israel that am goin to use me power to mek miracles and get 'em out of slavery. And then they'll know as I'm Jehovah who rescued 'em from Egyptians."
So Moses goes off again and he tells all folk what he'd bin told only no?one would listen to him cos they thought he were daft. It were cos of him that Egyptians were laying into 'em every day so they weren't inclined to listen to owt else he might have to say like.
And then God has a chat wi' Moses again and tells him to go to Pharaoh and tell him to let people of Israel go. But Moses, quite rightly in my book, he says,
"Why's Pharaoh goin to listen to me? He teks no notice of owt I say."
Then Moses starts goin on abart Passover an'all. He tells folk all abart stuff what God had told him to tell 'em.
"This is day tha'll remember forever! It's day we left Egypt and slavery cos God did them miracles. And remember that when tha's celebrating Passover tha's not to use none of that yeast stuff. So mek a note in thi diaries that it's at end of March each year. That's when God set us off for land of Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Hivites, and Jebusites. It's land what was promised to us fathers and has milk and honey and all that stuff.
"For seven days," says Moses, "tha's not to eat owt wi' yeast and ont seventh day that can stuff thi faces. Oh ah, and summat else. When God brings us to land He's promised us tha's to dedicate all first born sons to God and all first born male animals. And int future when children ask, 'Nar then Dad. What's all this reet boring Passover clap trap?' Tha can tell 'em straight. Tha can give 'em a clip rarnd ear'oil for a start and tell 'em, 'It's to mark when God brought us art on Egypt son. He med miracles what'd mek thi hair curl and if it weren't for Him we'd still be in Egypt mekkin bricks wi' straw so shut thi gob and help thi Gran cut her lamb up.'"
"And tha can tell 'em that it were cos Jehovah killed all first born Egyptian sons as we now dedicate all our first born sons to God."
Well, t'old people of Israel travelled along a bit and they dint go rarnd by way of Philistines which were quicker cos they'd have had to fight all way through see, so God sends 'em through t'old Red Sea wilderness area instead.
And while they were abart it Moses took bones of Joseph with 'em cos Joseph had med 'em promise to tek his bones art on Egypt when they got free. So they did.
After they left Succoth they camped art at Etham on edge of wilderness and God give 'em a thing to follow. It were this pillar of cloud during day and at night it become a pillar of fire so's everyone could see reet well even when it were dark.
According to the Talmud, the Hebrew word "amen" (pronounced "ah-men" or, in Ashkenazi pronunciation, "uh-main") is related to the word "amanah," meaning truthfulness, credence or belief. When we hear another reciting a blessing we respond with "amen"; thus affirming that we believe that which has just been said.
In addition, amen (אמן) is an acronym for the Hebrew words א-ל מלך נאמן, (El Melech Ne'eman), meaning "G‑d, the trustworthy King."
I enjoyed reading the Yorkshire Bible. Any translation must try to be as faithful as is possible to the meaning on the original, and translate that as accurately as possible into the new language. That is why a word for word translation is not normally possible.
That makes sense. The underlying Greek is in fact, 'amen' which is obviously a transliteration. But apparently you still wouldn't expect to hear a double 'amen?' I know it is used in the King James Version of the Old Testament, at Numbers 5:22 and Nehemiah 8:6.
I wouldn't expect a double 'amen', there'd be no need for it.
I think that the King James is beautiful poetry -- but as elder999 has pointed out -- there were strong secular hands involved in its creation. The current "official" Bible for the readings at Mass in the Catholic Church in the US is The New American Bible, Revised Edition. An almost frightening amount of scholarship went into it -- yet there's another revision in the works. Haggling over which translation is "best" misses the point and has a worrisome potential to fall towards the trap of legalism...
There is no translation that is correct.
Depends on how you define "correct."
There is no translation that is perfect. But I do believe that, done properly and in the proper spirit, the essential Truth of the scripture can be presented.
Probably the Bible where God fed hundreds if if not thousands of people with a piece of bread
Maybe G-man regrets the whole Babel thing by now.
He could just do the translation himself just like he wrote the book in the first place, but maybe he needs to brush up on his modern language skills or something
Perhaps he doesn't care because the people it was written for and by use it exactly as it was meant to be used and everyone else can do their own thing which is basically what they are doing. Judaism was never meant to be a religion for everyone, other religions are always available, if people decide to mangle and interpret writings meant for specific people and take it as there own with entirely different meanings then I'm not surprised we've had all these 'religious' wars, crusades, inquisitions etc. Only last week a bomb was found under a car of a Protestant in Northern Ireland planted by the Catholic IRA. It doesn't stop, far from bringing peace this 'new' religion has brought death and suffering to millions and millions of people. Just looking at British history there's hundreds of years of persecution from all sides. Perhaps if people had all kept their original religions, if they had them, if we hadn't had all these missionaries, we'd all be a lot happier and more peaceful!
Actually that makes some sense. Why reveal your teachings only in some little far away place if it is meant for everyone? It is like JK Rowling if she had published Harry Potter only in Mongolia.
Besides we don`t need no dress wearing hippie Jesus when we got Odin, Tor and Frøya. Jesus was just one of dozens of prophets before and after who caught on eventually.
Still time to convert to a real badass religion..
Boy, I gotta agree, that's some ba-ad bootie!
Well to your point, in English we still acknowledge Tiw's day, Woden's day, Thor's Day, and Freya's day (Now I understand why I've always loved Fridays!). I understand Germans, of all people, wimped out in the face of Christian pressure and dumped Woden's day for "Mittwoch"!
As for Bible translations, I prefer the King James Version, rather like Elder and Tez, ...for it's poetic qualities. But each to their own. There really isn't any point in arguing about religion (or martial arts systems) with a "true believer" .
During my graduate school years, I rented a room at a house owned by a woman who insisted that the only correct name for the one true God was Jehova. I pointed out that this name for divinity was a medieval construction created by ill-informed monks combining the Roman translation for the Hebrew letters yod, he, vav, he (j, h, v, h) with the vowel points for the word "adonai" or "lord" as used by Jewish scribes (the sounds ah, oh, and ai). This combination yielded the erroneous, made-up word "Jehovah" ...NOT the true name of G-D!
I remember her pausing to mull over what I said and seeing a momentary spark of understanding ....which was immediately replaced by an outburst of rage.
She actually covered her ears and called me the mouthpiece of Satan. In short, I very nearly lost my lodgings. Only a very strong apology and promise to never again bring up the subject kept this devout Christian woman from throwing me out onto the street.
So while I read this whole thread with interest, I'll keep my opinions to myself.
You should know I haven't actually read it lol! I know the language is 'poetic' but wouldn't read it because there's nothing in it that I can 'work' with as it were or argue about if you want to be exact.
Hey, I haven't read the whole thing either. But if you've read Shakespeare or Milton, or ever heard the Anglican version of Lord's Prayer or the 23rd Psalm recited, you know the quality of the language.
For what it's worth I belong to no organized religion so I have no stake here, but I was raised in a nominally Episcopalian home (the American branch of the Church of England) so I still feel an aesthetic and emotional connection to that language and tradition.
I have read there was a desire to inject a certain type of prose, but only as long as it remained true to the original meaning. That doesn’t exactly follow King James’ instructions to the committees:
The following set of “rules” had been prepared on behalf of church and state by Richard Bancroft, Bishop of London and high-church Anglican. “For the better ordering of the proceedings of the translators, his Majesty recommended the followingrulesto them, to be very carefully observed:--
“1. The ordinary Bible, read in the church, commonly called theBishop’s Bible,to be followed, and as little altered as the original will permit.
“2. The names of the prophets and the holy writers, with the other names in the text, to be retained, as near as may be, according as they are vulgarly used.
“3. Theold ecclesiastical words to be kept; as the wordchurch, not to be translatedcongregation,&c.
“4. When any word hath divers significations, that to be kept which has been most commonlyused by the most eminent fathers, being agreeable to the propriety of the place, and the analogy of the faith.
“5. The division of the chapters to be altered, either not at all, or as little as may be, if necessity so require.
“6.No marginal notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek words, which cannot, without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the text.
“7. Such quotations of places to be marginally set down, as shall serve for the fit references of one scripture to another.
“8. Every particular man of each company to take the same chapter of chapters; and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinks good, all to meet together, to confer what they have done, and agree for their part what shall stand.
“9. As any one company hath dispatched any one book in this manner, they shall send it to the rest to be considered of seriously and judiciously: for his Majesty is very careful in this point.
“10. If any company, upon the review of the book so sent, shall doubt or differ upon any places, and therewithal to send their reasons; to which if they consent not, the difference to be compounded at the general meeting, which is to be the chief persons of each company, at the end of the work.
“11. When any place of special obscurity is doubted of, letters to be directly by authority to send to any learned in the land for his judgment in such a place.
“12. Letters to be sent from every bishop to the rest of the clergy, admonishing them of this translation in hand, and to move and charge as many as being skillful in the tongues, have taken pains in that kind, to send their particular observations to the company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford, according as it was directed before the king’s letter to the archbishop.
“13. The directors in each company to be deans of Westminster and Chester, and the king’s professors in Hebrew and Greek in the two universities.
“14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the text than the Bishop’s Bible, viz. Tyndale’s, Coverdale’s, Matthew’s, Wilchurch’s,* Geneva.”
*By “Wilchurch” is meant the Great Bible, which was printed by Edward Wilchurch, one of King Henry VIII’s printers.
Note that use of the word ‘company.’ We usually use the word committee these days. If you look up the educational and religious background of the committee members, you should agree their qualifications were “almost frightening” as well. They were church leaders, preachers, and college professors and leaders. They spoke and taught the languages they translated.
Then as you look at the instructions to the translators of the committees, you will see not so much secularity as differing religious views. Such as the use of the word ‘church’ over ‘congregation.’ That was a carryover by Anglicans from the Catholic Church, that they were ‘the church,’ not as Tyndale said, to call them congregations. Also the source Bible was to be the Bishop’s Bible. It never gained popularity by the common people, even though it was officially sanctioned. Or, that there were to be no marginal notes as in the Geneva Bible, as King James didn’t like them. But the Geneva Bible was still on the list as in the next paragraph below.
If by the way, you look at number 14, you will see a list of most of the significant English translations on the way to the KJV Bible. But not the first translation of the entire Bible in English which was done by a Catholic priest named Wycliff. It wouldn’t have been considered significant since it was translated pretty much word for word from Latin (the Latin Vulgate) to English. That made it more difficult to understand, but at least it was in English, which the common man could indeed read if he could get ahold of a copy. That to say there wasn’t such a great secular influence.
The Catholic Church vehemently opposed the idea of the common man being able to read the Bible himself. They so disliked Wycliff’s Bible, and Wicliff’s stance on the Catholic Church, that he was excommunicated. That wasn’t enough. Later, a priest lead a mob of people that dug up his bones, burned them, and threw the ashes into a river.
Jks9199, have you by any chance read anything as to why the Catholic Church was so vehemently opposed any translation but Latin for use by the Church? And having decided to produce an approved English translation after all, why was it necessary to replace the New American Bible (NAB) with the NABRE? And why is still another translation necessary?
I noted you said no translation is perfect. Do you suppose the God who created the entire universe, and everything in it, cannot safeguard His word as it is translated into other languages? Must He hope for sincere and educated men to keep striving towards a translation of His words, which they cannot somehow ever achieve? That, knowing some precious souls may be led to improper living or damnation, due to incorrect words in translations?
Anyway, not to make too long a post, but just to show another point of view reference the instructions by King James to the committees. And from one of my other posts, that the committee members were well educated men who spoke the languages they translated.
As always, I understand neither you nor anybody else is required to share my beliefs. I find it interesting and educational to learn other people’s beliefs and views. I appreciate them very much (again thanks to Tez3 for her continued URLs to jewish sites explaining jewish thought. I value them) and especially when people are tolerant enough to explain their beliefs and reasons for them, as opposed to stern statements of ‘facts.’ Especially when there are clearly many opposing views, most of equal value, depending on one’s own chosen beliefs
One problem for me is that while there may have been scholars of Hebrew working on the KJV they weren't Jewish scholars who understood not just the text but how to prise the context out of the text. (There were no Jews in the UK from 1275 to 1655) Speaking the language is not the same as being a 'native speaker. Look at the difficulties and misunderstandings we have here between American and British English speakers.
I suppose the problem , as I've said before, is that the OT was never meant for dissemination among anyone other than the Jewish people, written by Jews for Jews it's hard to see how it really has relevance for non Jews who have only taken it upon themselves because the person they follow was Jewish though that is forgotten for much of the time I feel. I find it puzzling that people decide the OT is not relevant as far as the Law is concerned yet they follow someone to whom the Law as well as Jewish customs and traditions would have been very important as a Jew. The person they follow would have also been able to argue the points as we still do, would have known that the Law is able to be used so that it was humane and just rather than dictatorial. For example where it says a witch should be killed, the Law actually works so that no one is killed, there isn't actually a death penalty there just a warning. There's many examples like this yet this is missing when the Law goes out of Jewish hands and is used to justify much that shouldn't be. In Jewish Law the death penalty is to remind people of the seriousness of the crime not something that should actually carried out. It's this connection with the Law and the way it works that is very sadly lacking when people take the Bible to be literal and follow it to the letter. they leave out all human understanding and compassion which was given to us by G-d.
"The Talmud ruled out the admissibility of circumstantial evidence in cases which involved a capital crime. Two witnesses were required to testify that they saw the action with their own eyes. A man could not be found guilty of a capital crime through his own confession or through the testimony of immediate members of his family. The rabbis demanded a condition of cool premeditation in the act of crime before they would sanction the death penalty; the specific test on which they insisted was that the criminal be warned prior to the crime, and that the criminal indicate by responding to the warning, that he is fully aware of his deed, but that he is determined to go through with it. In effect this did away with the application of the death penalty. The rabbis were aware of this, and they declared openly that they found capital punishment repugnant to them… There is another reason which argues for the abolition of capital punishment. It is the fact of human fallibility. Too often we learn of people who were convicted of crimes and only later are new facts uncovered by which their innocence is established. The doors of the jail can be opened, in such cases we can partially undo the injustice. But the dead cannot be brought back to life again. We regard all forms of capital punishment as barbaric and obsolete".
—Rabbi Ben Zion Bokser, Statement on capital punishment, 1960. Proceedings of the Committee on Jewish Law and Standards 1927-1970, Volume III, pp. 1537-1538
Thanks Tez3. As always, even when I may not agree, I am always interested in your explanations. I feel they give me much insight. I may make some comments later to explain my thoughts on some of what you have said. Again, thanks.123
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