The "better to die on your feet" thread

[ballen0351]

Your responsibility as a LEO ia different than mine as a civilian. If said naked guy had advanced on me as a citizen with an axe in his hand, I'd have run away if I could have. I don't have the fun job of putting the habeas grabbus on him. On the other hand, if I found I could not retreat, I also don't have to try to effect a least reasonable use of force arrest that might expose me to life-threatening danger. You had a job to do. I only have to survive. So yeah, dude gets two in the ten ring.

He wasn't naked when he had the axe. That would be strange.

As for the rest I agree I was just trying to show it doesn't always have to be draw gun = fire gun. There are times draw gun get distance run away or gain compliance is more effective and less hassle afterwards then shooting someone. I have shot and killed someone and never want to do it again if I can avoid it. Its cost me more then I want to discus.

 

[ballen0351]

I will add however I made the decision already if he exited the garage with the ave he was getting put down. There were too many civilians out on the sidewalk watching that if he went after them I no longer had a safe backdrop to shoot so he wasn't getting out of the garage armed

 

[Bill Mattocks]

He wasn't naked when he had the axe. That would be strange.

As for the rest I agree I was just trying to show it doesn't always have to be draw gun = fire gun. There are times draw gun get distance run away or gain compliance is more effective and less hassle afterwards then shooting someone. I have shot and killed someone and never want to do it again if I can avoid it. Its cost me more then I want to discus.

Again, I think you are using your perspective as a cop. My needs are different. I don't need to create space to gain compliance. If I can create distance, I'm gonna beat feet outta there. I am not there to engage, I am seeking to disengage. If I can do that by running away, I'm gone. If I cannot retreat and I belive my life is in immediate danger, I draw. If I draw, I fire, because that's how I was trained. If I have to to draw, make space, think about firing, then I should not have drawn, because unlike your job, I don't have to arrest the dude and I'm not going to try.

Soldiers and LEOs have to take on life-threatening risk to do their jobs. Their response is and should be different than mine. I won't incur additional risk to try to avoid having to use a firearm as you must do. If I draw, it's because my life is about to end, I am in mortal danger. In such a circumstance, I will fire; that is predetermined and an imperative.

I respect and thank you for what you do. But it is not my job. Self-defense has only one imperative, to survive. There are no caveats on that.

 

[drop bear]

yes. We have people that use all our rights irresponsibly. Not being about to take,it away is what makes it a right not a privilege
Then it's no longer a right.

Correct. So for me I am a gun responsibility guy. Not a gun rights guy.

 

[drop bear]

Again, I think you are using your perspective as a cop. My needs are different. I don't need to create space to gain compliance. If I can create distance, I'm gonna beat feet outta there. I am not there to engage, I am seeking to disengage. If I can do that by running away, I'm gone. If I cannot retreat and I belive my life is in immediate danger, I draw. If I draw, I fire, because that's how I was trained. If I have to to draw, make space, think about firing, then I should not have drawn, because unlike your job, I don't have to arrest the dude and I'm not going to try.

Soldiers and LEOs have to take on life-threatening risk to do their jobs. Their response is and should be different than mine. I won't incur additional risk to try to avoid having to use a firearm as you must do. If I draw, it's because my life is about to end, I am in mortal danger. In such a circumstance, I will fire; that is predetermined and an imperative.

I respect and thank you for what you do. But it is not my job. Self-defense has only one imperative, to survive. There are no caveats on that.

Why is it being someone's job that makes the difference?

 

[ballen0351]

Correct. So for me I am a gun responsibility guy. Not a gun rights guy.

fair enough. There are many here that don't see a difference

 

[ballen0351]

Again, I think you are using your perspective as a cop. My needs are different. I don't need to create space to gain compliance. If I can create distance, I'm gonna beat feet outta there. I am not there to engage, I am seeking to disengage. If I can do that by running away, I'm gone. If I cannot retreat and I belive my life is in immediate danger, I draw. If I draw, I fire, because that's how I was trained. If I have to to draw, make space, think about firing, then I should not have drawn, because unlike your job, I don't have to arrest the dude and I'm not going to try.

Soldiers and LEOs have to take on life-threatening risk to do their jobs. Their response is and should be different than mine. I won't incur additional risk to try to avoid having to use a firearm as you must do. If I draw, it's because my life is about to end, I am in mortal danger. In such a circumstance, I will fire; that is predetermined and an imperative.

I respect and thank you for what you do. But it is not my job. Self-defense has only one imperative, to survive. There are no caveats on that.

I think that scenario is just a poor example to make my point. My point being you can draw a weapon and not need to shoot and that's a viable option for self defense. For example your driving to the store and accident cut someone off. They get pissed and start following you but you don't realize it. You get to the store and park. They pull up and the guy starts yelling. He walks to his trunk and grabs a baseball bat. Says I'm going to crush your skull. He's still 20 feet away. You draw your weapon he stops drops the bat and get back,in his car. You defended yourself and never fired as shot. Where as if he continues towards you with the bat then yes drop him. So every situation is different. To say if I have to draw my gun I will shoot it paints yourself into a box and you might get yourself in some trouble with that mindset.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

If he's not in range to kill me, I'm not justified in using lethal force, so I don't draw. On the other hand, if he's rushing at me, 20 feet can be covered in a second or so, in which case I am in danger and I'm foolish to draw and wait. If I'm in immediate danger, I draw and fire. If not, I don't draw or fire.

 

[ballen0351]

If he's not in range to kill me, I'm not justified in using lethal force, so I don't draw. On the other hand, if he's rushing at me, 20 feet can be covered in a second or so, in which case I am in danger and I'm foolish to draw and wait. If I'm in immediate danger, I draw and fire. If not, I don't draw or fire.

I think not only are you justified to draw in that scenario before he's in range you would be a fool not to. If drawing will prevent me from taking a life I'll draw in a heart beat.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think not only are you justified to draw in that scenario before he's in range you would be a fool not to. If drawing will prevent me from taking a life I'll draw in a heart beat.

Brandishing is a crime, depending on the circumstances. I won't do it in any case. If my weapon clears leather, I'm in deadly peril and it gets fired.

But you touch on what I mentioned before. Assume I draw and instead of causing him to back down, he becomes enraged and draws his gat. Now I have a real problem.

My weapon is not a nonlethal self defense tool. That's what my common sense, my art of persuasion, my fleetness of foot, and my fists are for, in that order. My gun is for use in gravest extreme only, to defend my life by taking someone else's. It is not a yield sign, it is a stop sign. There's no 'or else' if I have to draw it, we are past that point.

 

[ballen0351]

Brandishing is a crime, depending on the circumstances. I won't do it in any case. If my weapon clears leather, I'm in deadly peril and it gets fired.

Yes but in my scenario he made a threat and took steps to carry out the threat thats an assault here. You are well within your rights to defend yourself you dont need to wait until the last second to start defending yourself.

But you touch on what I mentioned before. Assume I draw and instead of causing him to back down, he becomes enraged and draws his gat. Now I have a real problem.

well your weapon isalready out I hope your a better shot since you already have the advantage. 2ndly he was already going to try and kill you does it matter how?

My weapon is not a nonlethal self defense tool.

nor should you treat it like one. If I draw I have every intent to use it but that doesnt mean I alway will.

That's what my common sense, my art of persuasion, my fleetness of foot, and my fists are for, in that order. My gun is for use in gravest extreme only, to defend my life by taking someone else's. It is not a yield sign, it is a stop sign. There's no 'or else' if I have to draw it, we are past that point.

I disagree I think your putting yourself at a great disadvantage by not drawing sooner and allowing the other person a chance to rethink what they are doing. Sometimes you can't or you dont have time other times Id give it a try the worst thing that can happen is I still need to shoot but I was going to anyway so...

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No, I am imperiling myself by giving him time to try to even the odds. My goal is not s fair fight, it's me surviving. Drawing a weapon is not a deescalation tool if you are not a cop.

 

[ballen0351]

Drawing a weapon is not a deescalation tool if you are not a cop.

No its not but it tends to be very effective no matter who draws it.

Im not saying your wrong but I will never wait to the last moment to draw. At that point there is too much margin for error. If I miss he got me, If my clothes get tanggled in my holster and it slows down my draw hes got me, Too many bad things can happen waiting too long. I will always error on the side of draw first. I can alway put ot away if I dont need it any longer.

Now dont get me wrong Im not sayin I gun face everyone that calls me a bad name or looks at me funny. But if I preceve a real threat is coming Im not waiting. Some dude says Im going to bash my skull and opens his trunk Im drawing down before he even gets the bat out of the trunk.

 

[drop bear]

fair enough. There are many here that don't see a difference

Generally i am against both dides on that debate. Lucky i am not confrontational.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

No its not but it tends to be very effective no matter who draws it.

Im not saying your wrong but I will never wait to the last moment to draw.

No, but you'll wait until the last moment to fire; apparently even to the point of allowing the bad guy to arm himself with a firearm before you pull the trigger.

At that point there is too much margin for error. If I miss he got me, If my clothes get tanggled in my holster and it slows down my draw hes got me, Too many bad things can happen waiting too long. I will always error on the side of draw first. I can alway put ot away if I dont need it any longer.

I never said I'd wait until the last moment. I said I would not draw my weapon unless I was in immediate danger of losing my life and I had no other recourse, such as running away. I said that *if* those conditions were met, I would draw and then fire without hesitation.

The difference between our philosophies appears to boil down to the fact that you would draw first, but hold fire until you felt it was absolutely necessary. I would not draw unless I felt it was absolutely necessary, but then would fire without waiting.

Now dont get me wrong Im not sayin I gun face everyone that calls me a bad name or looks at me funny. But if I preceve a real threat is coming Im not waiting. Some dude says Im going to bash my skull and opens his trunk Im drawing down before he even gets the bat out of the trunk.

You changed the parameters. If a guy says he is going to bash my skull and opens his trunk, I don't know what he's going to pull out of there; a bat or a gun. At that point, a 'reasonable man' would agree, I believe, that I'm in mortal danger and authorized to defend myself with lethal force. Nevertheless, if I could remove myself from danger by fleeing, I'd do that instead.

I will give you this - if in your scenario above, the dude threatens to kill me, then opens his trunk and I draw my weapon, if he comes up with a club before I can squeeze off a shot, I'm probably not going to fire at that point; he has now made it clear that at least for the moment he is not an immediate threat to my life. Given those specific circumstances, I'd be obligated to hold fire. If he ducked back under the trunk lid, then it's game on again, because I don't know what he's doing under there. If he charges me, again, game on; now he's an immediate threat to my life.

The last element is one I keep mentioning; we have different jobs. In your scenario above, you are obligated not to run away, but to confront the guy digging in his trunk for something to kill you with. I am not going to confront or attempt to subdue this guy. I am going to try to disengage entirely, run away, depart, vamoose, amscray. I don't wear a badge anymore. Since you have to stay and deal with el whackadoo, you have to use a different set of skills, which I recognize. I do not. If I can leave, I'm gone. If I cannot leave and he advances on my with the stick or whatever, he gets what happens next. I'm under no obligation to use the least amount of force necessary to effect an arrest and I can't afford to play that game with my life.

 

[Tgace]

What happens if you draw and the other guy runs or surrenders? Certainly, if you can safely retreat you should do so, but I don't think that precludes drawing your weapon as well. Many things can happen between clearing leather and depressing the trigger.

I understand the philosophy of CCW's only drawing when they will need to shoot, but IMO that's somewhat different from "I will wait to draw till I HAVE to shoot".

Most CCW classes I have seen teach that you draw only when you are "preparing" to protect yourself from a reasonably perceived deadly threat. Which is subtly different from only drawing when you are going to fire.

 

[Buka]

I think one of the biggest tactical problems the average citizen has is their limited range time usually consists of target shooting and very little drawing of their weapon from wherever they carry it.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What happens if you draw and the other guy runs or surrenders? Certainly, if you can safely retreat you should do so, but I don't think that precludes drawing your weapon as well. Many things can happen between clearing leather and depressing the trigger.

Yes, and if he does any of those things, if I can stop myself from firing in that split second, of course I would.

The difference is subtle, but let me try to explain.

For some, the approach to engaging a weapon is:
1) Draw
2) Think about it, or give the attacker a moment to comply with instructions, back down, disengage, etc.
3) Fire if #2 fails.

My approach is:
1) Draw and fire.

As I mentioned previously, my approach to this is legalistic, moral, and operational.

Legalistic because if you yourself define a 'wait' moment in your own response to a deadly threat, then any attorney worth their salt is going to pounce on that. If you can wait one second, why not two? If you had time to wait, then were you really in life-threatening danger? Etc. I'm not going to open myself to those kinds of questions, ex post facto. Once I determine my life is in danger such that a reasonable man would agree I was entitled to use deadly force, I draw and fire. That is my stated standard. That is how I train. I will avoid engaging as long as possible, but if I do engage, there is no hesitation; there cannot be.

Moral because as mentioned above, if I truly do have time to think about things, then I am not in life-threatening danger, or alternatively, I'm foolish because I am delaying defending myself and putting myself in additional, unneeded danger. There is a moral notion about 'fair play' ingrained in the American psyche, based I suppose on Western quick-draw movies, but it's a false one. Unlike a movie western, the goal is merely to survive. By running away if possible. By avoiding getting into those kinds of confrontations if possible. Anything up to the point where death is immanent. But then it is survival. No fair play, no moment of reflection for good guy and bad guy. Bad guy made his choices; and if it was a poor one, he's potentially going to pay for that with his life.

I understand the philosophy of CCW's only drawing when they will need to shoot, but IMO that's somewhat different from "I will wait to draw till I HAVE to shoot".

Again, this goes to my philosophy that when you draw a weapon, you change the dynamics of the situation immediately and irrevocably. It may, as stated, cause the bad guy to back down. It may not. But no matter what happens after that, now that a firearm has been introduced - by either party - the situation has become hugely more serious. If it was not actually life-and-death, now it definitely is.

To draw a firearm is to announce intent to kill. I do not have any intent to kill unless I am reasonably in fear that I am about to be killed. In that case, and that case only, I will draw my weapon. Presuming things have gotten to that point, my training is that the very next thing that happens is that I aim and fire.

Most CCW classes I have seen teach that you draw only when you are "preparing" to protect yourself from a reasonably perceived deadly threat. Which is subtly different from only drawing when you are going to fire.

Subtle, yes. But I perceive that response as incorrect.

This also gets to the heart of something I have said before, which I firmly believe. Unlike any other self-defense weapon a person might choose to carry, a firearm is essentially different. It is not a close-range melee weapon that can only injure up close and personal. When I introduce a firearm to a self-defense situation, or the bad guy does, the dynamic of the confrontation immediately changes, and permanently so. First, it's now a deadly-force situation no matter how you look at it. With empty hands or a weapon other than a firearm it COULD be a deadly force situation, but it's not a given. With a firearm, there is no longer any doubt as to what kind of situation it is. Second, if the bad guy produces a firearm, he is now a deadly threat to me, from nearly any distance away. If he produces a baseball bat from 50 feet away, he's not a deadly threat to me - yet. He would have to get close enough to have the means to use it, or to take an action indicating that he was going to do that, like coming towards me in a threatening manner with it. With a firearm, his mere display of it puts me in reasonable fear of my life. And the same goes when I brandish a firearm at him. Although he is presumably breaking the law and not entitled to defend himself legally, the appearance of my firearm is going to inform him the same thing it informs me - that this is now a deadly confrontation. How he reacts, I cannot predict. But I did give him a heads up - and I'm not planning to do that.

 

[ballen0351]

Actually to draw and giving the attacker a second or two to change his mind in my opinion will help you legally. If I can honestly say I presented my firearm to the suspect and told him to stop and even with a gun pointed at him he still charged at me I had no choice he was going to kill me he didn't even care I had a gun.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think one of the biggest tactical problems the average citizen has is their limited range time usually consists of target shooting and very little drawing of their weapon from wherever they carry it.

Practical shoot-don't-shoot training, drawing the weapon, engaging in low-light conditions, etc, etc. Too many news stories about people shooting family members in the dark, through a door, etc. While some may be thinly-disguised actual murder attempts instead of 'self-defense', it is clear to me that many people don't understand that you have to see and identify your target to shoot at it, or that you can't chase a guy who broke into your garden shed down the street, shooting at him as you run after him in your underwear.

Alleged burglar shot while trying to steal hubcaps in NW Houston