That kick didnt go as planned......

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kframe, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    I wasnt sure if i should post this here or in TKD general. Im in MMA, and most of my kicks come from TKD.(Tho i do both the muayi thai and TKD style front kicks.) Being as im young at the martial arts thing, i have a really short list of kicks. 2 weeks ago i just learned the side kick, and had been practicing it at home alot. I went to practice and was working on the heavy bag, mostly boxing stuff, and working in my round kick and front kicks. Well towards the last round of my bag work i decided to work on my side kick. (it was kinda a free day for me that day, on those ihave a routine. Stretch, heavy bag for 5 3min rounds and then the grapple dummy for GNP for 5 rounds and then speed bag for 5 rounds. its a hell of a work out)

    Now im not sure what happend during the kick but i somehow injured my ankle. I was doing a lead leg side kick(or front leg IDK what to call it, i stand bladed in a orthodox stance which for me is left hand left leg lead with right hand to the rear) and right as im about to make contact with the heavy bag somehow i lose balance on my rear leg and my ankle rolls over. It almost felt as if the contact with the heavy bag screwed me up, im not sure how tho? Now since it was end of round and iwas moving on to gnp i delt with the pain and kept going. Now the pain is not as bad as it was the few days after words but its going on 2 weeks later and it still hurts. Now i can reach down find specific places on my ankle that hurt. Front of foot, just below the ankle, is one spot. There is another spot a few inches to the side near( but not on) the lil bump on the side of your foot that also hurts. Tho mainly its on the top front right under the ankle line.

    So Having said all that, Any thoughts on what things in my foot were injured? Any tips on preventing it, such as what things might i have been doing that could have led to it, and corrections for the future?

    Now Does anyone have a funny or otherwise amuzing or weird kicking story that they want to share? It would make me feel so much better knowing im not the only one that is prone to acts of newbness..
     
  2. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    When I was a white belt, our sensei had us practice a flying side kick on the heavy bag. At the time, in addition to being basically unskilled, I also weighed close to 300 pounds. I didn't fly so much as I plummeted. I walked with a limp for nearly six months. Hilarious.
     
  3. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    When I was 16 years old the night before a tournament my Sensei's son and I were practicing together. Things got out of hand, a spinning back kick from me and a simultaneous leg sweep from him resulted in me falling and smashing my knee. Major surgery, years out of karate, a limp when it gets cold and an almost constant click is what I got for it. Oh, and I'll probably have to get the knee replaced again in a few years.
     
  4. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Sounds to me that you have just rolled the ankle and that with rest it should recover fully. More serious injury and you would have more pain or swelling, or both, and you probably would be hobbling around rather than walking.


    As to funny situations (I'm hoping it's fine to laugh at another's misfortune) I had a new student turn up to class claiming a fair amount of prior experience. I invited him to show us a kick and he swung into an axe kick. Unfortunately it did not go to plan. I'm not sure how or where the injury occurred but his ankle immediately swelled with a lump the size of a tennis ball. We gave him an icepack and sent him home and never saw him at training again. I did catch up with him some years later and we were able to laugh about it.


    Then last week I was leading some basic kicking drills. Front kick with speed and focus and snap goes the back of my hammy. I'm still limping. Bugger this getting older stuff! :asian:
     
  5. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Another funny situation that happened to me over the summer, i was bored before class, so i axe-kicked a wavemaster training bag. I forgot that the center of it wasn't padded, and hit it with with full force straight into the hard part at the top.
     
  6. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Bill i would imagine that wasn't funny when it happened,sounds painfully humiliating. I still am a big guy and I to feel like that when I'm learning a new maneuver.
    Omar bro I feel for you mate. That had to be hard experience for you.

    It makes me feel better hearing everyone's story. Of course hearing stories much worse then mine puts it into perspective.
    Like what happened could have been much worse.
     
  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Painful yes, humiliating, no. My skin is too thick for that. If I could be humiliated by my size of my lack of grace, speed, power, balance, or fitness, I'd have quit karate some time ago.

    I just keep training. Five years later, I think I may have improved somewhat.

    I'm a lot lighter now. But I still do not do the 'jumping' kicks.

    We practice spinning back kicks in my dojo. Both with and without a 180 or 360 leap. I don't even try. That's not in my bag o' tricks and never will be. A man's got to know his limitations.
     
  8. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Know your limitations and acknowledge your strengths, my friend :bows:. I forget where that good advice came from ... probably my father ... most of the wisdom I pass on seems to be from him :lol:. Most strange :confused:. I thought he hadn't got a clue when I was a young teenager :eek:.
     
  9. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Its impossible to say for sure over the Internet, but it sounds to Me like You had Your ankle twisted in a way Ive sometimes seen people randomly do, in their efforts to get the heel out further. Then when they hit something, the ankle is at an otherwise imperceptible slant. I suggest getting a video camera, setting it up sideways from you, then doing the kick, and seeing if Your leg/ankle are at any funny angles. If not, You probably just pulled something or aggravated something. Its probably fine. Give it a week or so to improve, if it gets worse, get it looked at.

    For funnies, i once witnessed someone doing one of those jump kicks where the target is held up by someone sitting on someones shoulders. The kicker then jumped, kicked, kicked over the target, dropped down and scrambled back up, then spontaneously jumped back the other way and kicked, hitting the target. I was amused.
     
  10. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

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    Thanks for the concern but I'm fine. I've seen people with way less serious injuries use it as a reason not to be fit. Oh my back, my knees, my thyroid, etc. In any case, I had a good surgeon (the guy who did my brother's knee, broke his in soccer). One knee at 80% on me still makes me faster, stronger, more powerful than most of the general population. Plus, in another 15 to 20 years when I do really need the new knee can you imagine the awesome advances in medicine by then?

    It's why we train, to destroy limitations. It was a good lesson in control, as a teen I used to fight really wild, my cuz says that I fought like the character from Fighter In The Wind, while now I'm more controlled and focused.
     
  11. zDom

    zDom Senior Master

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    Advice: don't put power into kicks until you are sure you have good form. Heavy bag kicking might be OK if you weren't trying to put too much power into it yet, but 1,000—2,000 kicks in the air (each leg) to get a good motion would be a better idea before going at it with the bag.

    Hard to say what happened with your ankle without having seen it happen, but to reduce your chances of a similar injury happening again while training a side kick: make sure you pivot your supporting leg so the heel is pointing at the target, the toes pointing 180 degrees away from the target.

    I personally favor using the bottom part of the heel for the striking weapon for side kicks. Make sure you are hitting with the heel in the center of the bag. Hitting with the ball of the foot is not only incorrect (at least in our system) but also included the risk of hurting your foot (not sure if it would be hyperflexion or hyperextension, but it will hurt with the ball of the foot comes back further than comfortable for your calf muscles).

    Be careful of hitting with the heel off center as it can roll the bag and actually pull your left farther forward than intended, even hyperextending the knee.

    I always start with nice, easy kicks on the bag and slowly ramp up the power. If I hit with bad form, I back off the power and then slowly ramp it up again.

    Embarrassing kicking story? When I was in the beginning ranks, I wanted my crescent kicks to be head high so much that sometimes I would accidently fling my kick leg up higher than my flexibility at that time could handle and it would jerk my supporting leg out from under me. I'm sure it was very amusing to watch since people would laugh but it sure hurt my rump to land on my butt with nothing but indoor-outdoor carpet on concrete with no carpet padding.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2012
  12. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    Sounds like you rolled your ankle and it sounds like the reason is how you planted your supporting foot. When executing a sidekick the toes of the supporting foot should be pointing in the opposite direction of the kick to provide a proper base. In the beginning, people have a tendency to not turn their supporting foot far enough resulting in their supporting foot facing 90 degrees from the direction of the kick. This is a recipe for rolling the ankle when the kick contacts something that isn't trying to move (like a heavy bag).

    When I was younger I tried to get everyone I knew into martial arts training. To me, it was the greatest thing ever. Well, I was teaching my cousin a front kick. Him being the over achiever that he was decided to throw a front kick as high as a hard as he could upon learning it. We were standing on a sandlot...

    Yep, he throws the kick as hard as possible and the force of it makes his supporting leg fly out from under him as he slips on the sand. He looked like someone who fell for the old trick where a friend gets on all fours behind someone one and that someone is pushed over the friend...except he did it to himself. Laughed at him for a few years from that one. We still laugh about it and it was at least 15 years ago.
     
  13. GaryR

    GaryR Green Belt

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    You shouldn't be planning to kick above the waist anyhow. The knee is a great target, the front kick to the hip or sternum at the HIGHEST. Would you punch someone in the foot?

    If you can't generate enough power to punch from a few inches from your fist to target with enough power to KO or Kill you need a new teacher and / or style.

    Best,

    Gary
     
  14. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

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    Good points Gary!

    Krillan
    ​was practising a side kick and made no mention that he was kicking higher than the waist. He also says he is training for MMA. The knee is a great target for self defence but if you take out someone's knee in a 'friendly' competition you might fall foul of the law that says the rules will not allow .. any unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to opponent. Mmm!

    i wonder what your advice is to all the TKD guys on the forum.. "You shouldn't be planning to kick above the waist anyhow." I can see that getting you Brownie points.

    Now, back to our friendly MMA bout .. hang about! I'm going to hit him with enough power to kill? Phew! Reminds me of Arlo Guthrie's "Alice's Restaurant" from the 60s. "I want to kill, kill, .."

    Now, I'm excited! :knight2:
     
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  15. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    The cause of the injury could be anything from a bruise to a sprain or tear of a ligament. Without going to a doctor, you won't know. During my years of training, I've felt some pain, either at that moment, or a day later, and drove myself nuts thinking of the cause of it..lol. Perhaps you just kicked the bag at an odd angle. Next time you're working that kick, do it a bit slower, so you can see exactly what you're doing. Have someone else watch as well. Perhaps a slight adjustment is all you need.
     
  16. GaryR

    GaryR Green Belt

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    Thanks K-man. Brownie points or not, the truth hurts. TKD is a sport, and kicking can be fun, in that context-wonderful.

    :D

    Best,

    Gary Romel
    www.flowingcombat.net
     
  17. Zero

    Zero Master Black Belt

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    If you don't have the skill or speed to pull off head kicks out of the ring, I agree, you shouldn't - it's good you know your limitations.
    As for punching someone in the foot, sure, I have used an elbow block (nasty) into opponents kicking foot. But I don't think that's what you meant; bending over to punch someone's foot on the ground is a world away from kicking someone in the head.

    While I would generally agree with your premise, a well rounded, open-minded fighter or artist doesn't shut down options; I also find that the better you are at throwing a technique, the better you are at countering it, generally. Take it from a guy that has unfortunately been in SD situations on the street, has used head kicks out of tournament to success and has been trained by sensei who as a LEO works on street patrol and in the cells (about as rough as it gets) and has used head kicks. There's a time and a place for everything. BY the way, nice website, I wish you success!!
     
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2012
  19. Kframe

    Kframe Black Belt

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    Sorry for not replying for a while guys, i have been busy.

    K man, I was indead kicking above the waist. I was kicking at about Solar Plexus lvl. I seem to be unable to reliably throw higher lvl kicks. So i focus on low lvl kicks now till i can get my weight down more and flexibility up more. So far the only kick i can do at solar plexus level accurately/strongly/quickly with out loosing balance is a front kick. Tho i cant get them to face lvl, im happy with them at solar plexus level.

    Oddly my ankle isnt fully healed yet, tho its almost done healing. Still one little place on the top that hurts and ill be glad when its fineally all healed up.

    Edit to add

    Zdom, Thanks for the adivce. I have been doing alot of air kicks with my side kicks, and have improved. Your thoughts on my foot position were spot on. Looking back on the incident i failed to rotate my support leg. I am more concience of that now.

    Now If i could find a good way to practice round kicks on the air. Right now i do my round kicks, TKD style, but when im shadow boxing them, i just do the MT thing of continuing the rotation of my body. My legs apparently arnt up to the task of stopping the round kick at the "end" and then retracting to stance. Right now, when i want to practice a round kick, i just kick stuff. Pallets stacked full of bags of floor dry have taken much abuse from me practicing my kicks. I keep watching videos of round kicks, and they all seam to beable to just stop them in mid air, at the end of there journey and then retract them. I cant seam to do do that unless they hit something. Any advice here guys, on how i can improve that? TBH tho my coach says im doing just fine with my round kicks as is, so i dont know if its just me being picky or just wanting to make it look right..
     
  20. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

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    K-Man has it correct. Would I punch someone in the foot? Damn right I would if I was in the right position ie grappling, I'll punch anything anywhere...

    Killing opponents in MMA competitions is strongly discouraged, it's messy and we run out of people willing to compete so makes for very short fight nights.

    Krillan, there's some sensible advice and people here, sadly the above is not sensible advice, you stick with what you're doing. I don't do side kicks, in 20 years I've never managed a decent one above ankle height. :)123
     

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