Klondike93
Master Black Belt
What chat room?
:asian:
:asian:
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
forum or message board..........
http://pub41.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3453335269
:asian:
http://pub41.bravenet.com/forum/show.php?usernum=3453335269
:asian:
OP
Kirk
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #23
In a public school, most teachers know who knows the material
and who doesn't, before the test is even passed out. But they
couldn't pass or fail a student without something to back it up.
It's a good CYO method, IMHO (but I'm not a teacher, nor am I
an instructor). I have enough faith that if my instructor suddenly
started promoting when he felt I was ready, that I'd go with that.
Yet when I first started taking lessons, I didn't know him from
Adam. I'd need some verifiable proof that I was learning what
others were expected to know, and so on and so forth. With my
limited knowledge considered, I prefer testing.
and who doesn't, before the test is even passed out. But they
couldn't pass or fail a student without something to back it up.
It's a good CYO method, IMHO (but I'm not a teacher, nor am I
an instructor). I have enough faith that if my instructor suddenly
started promoting when he felt I was ready, that I'd go with that.
Yet when I first started taking lessons, I didn't know him from
Adam. I'd need some verifiable proof that I was learning what
others were expected to know, and so on and so forth. With my
limited knowledge considered, I prefer testing.
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I used to use testing strictly as a formality. My students knew that if I told them to test, unless they completely freaked and bombed it, they were going to pass. Unfortunately, that led to some rather nasty side effects. I have students insisting on testing even though I have told them they are not ready. Now I am going to have to fail a few. I may go back to the days of promoting when I feel they have earned, without a test. I have not really decided what to do yet. I'll let you know.
Turner
Blue Belt
I agree with what someone else already said, whether or not you test depends on the person. I personally don't like the whole idea of testing. If you know the material, you know the material and you've earned your belt. It's a waste of the time to run through the material just to prove something the instructor should already know.
However, if the student has trouble believing that s/he deserves the rank, testing is a great way of proving to themselves that they know the material.
People asking to test for rank is something that I frown upon. I know that there are instructors who just don't keep track of their students and so they expect their students to ask to test, but I don't agree with this approach. Asking to test is asking for rank and that is just rude. Only ask if you've spent twice as much time in grade as the average, just in case your instructor has forgotten about you, but even then don't come out and ask to test... just ask what you need to do to improve your techniques, forms and etc. I'd personally suggest that you not ask at all. Be happy learning the techniques that you already know. Most people will get bored after working the same techniques for a certain period of time, but don't allow that mindset to get ahold of you. Each time you should be excited for the opportunity to perfect the technique a little more.
But thats just me...
However, if the student has trouble believing that s/he deserves the rank, testing is a great way of proving to themselves that they know the material.
People asking to test for rank is something that I frown upon. I know that there are instructors who just don't keep track of their students and so they expect their students to ask to test, but I don't agree with this approach. Asking to test is asking for rank and that is just rude. Only ask if you've spent twice as much time in grade as the average, just in case your instructor has forgotten about you, but even then don't come out and ask to test... just ask what you need to do to improve your techniques, forms and etc. I'd personally suggest that you not ask at all. Be happy learning the techniques that you already know. Most people will get bored after working the same techniques for a certain period of time, but don't allow that mindset to get ahold of you. Each time you should be excited for the opportunity to perfect the technique a little more.
But thats just me...
OP
tonbo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #26
One point on testing that I don't think has been brought up here yet.....
Most students, at least at first, tend to "need" testing...it's the only way that they see that they are making progress. Granted, you have quite a few adults who don't care about belts and who are just into the true "bones" of the style, but, for the most part, you are dealing with John and Jane Public, who think in terms of measurable progress.
Testing has some real advantages, especially for the set that needs rewards. Dangling the carrot in front of their nose gives them the goal to shoot for, and a reason for learning what they are learning. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that an instructor needs (or should!!) give out a belt to someone just to keep the money coming in. However, belts are sometimes a good motivator to keep people on track.
Similarly, why do we have testing in schools? Because we need a guage as to where students are, knowledge-wise. You don't graduate from high school or college until you have proven that you have met the curriculum with sufficient skill. Testing in MA schools isn't all that different. If someone has no college degree, but can still solve physics equations, are they considered "uneducated"? No, but unfortunately, the degree does carry a little more weight. Our western mindset tends to follow the same thought.......belts good, give legitimacy.
I have always seen testing as positive, as long as it is reasonable.....3+ hour tests, insane requirements, etc are not needed. Again, at our school, who goes to a belt "test" is decided LONG before the test, based on continuous performance and assessment in class. The "test" is more of a formality, more for friends and family who can then see the result of a person's training.
Oh, geez. Rambling again. Sorry.....
Peace--
P.s. GD7: Can I give you a call when I am ready to test for my yellow??
Most students, at least at first, tend to "need" testing...it's the only way that they see that they are making progress. Granted, you have quite a few adults who don't care about belts and who are just into the true "bones" of the style, but, for the most part, you are dealing with John and Jane Public, who think in terms of measurable progress.
Testing has some real advantages, especially for the set that needs rewards. Dangling the carrot in front of their nose gives them the goal to shoot for, and a reason for learning what they are learning. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that an instructor needs (or should!!) give out a belt to someone just to keep the money coming in. However, belts are sometimes a good motivator to keep people on track.
Similarly, why do we have testing in schools? Because we need a guage as to where students are, knowledge-wise. You don't graduate from high school or college until you have proven that you have met the curriculum with sufficient skill. Testing in MA schools isn't all that different. If someone has no college degree, but can still solve physics equations, are they considered "uneducated"? No, but unfortunately, the degree does carry a little more weight. Our western mindset tends to follow the same thought.......belts good, give legitimacy.
I have always seen testing as positive, as long as it is reasonable.....3+ hour tests, insane requirements, etc are not needed. Again, at our school, who goes to a belt "test" is decided LONG before the test, based on continuous performance and assessment in class. The "test" is more of a formality, more for friends and family who can then see the result of a person's training.
Oh, geez. Rambling again. Sorry.....
Peace--
P.s. GD7: Can I give you a call when I am ready to test for my yellow??
I have mixed feelings regarding tests (acknowledging that a test is different from a "Promotion".) I have seen some excellent 'tests', which were actually choriographed by one of the senior black belts in a school. The students were sharp and very well prepared. This was for Brown Belts only, by the way, quite a few of them. They had stress, but there was no doubt about the results. Nothing was asked of them that they had not prepared for.
I came up under a different system, where no matter how prepared you were, they would keep going until you reached your personal limit, plus a little bit ... or a lot. I hated this!!!!! Lots of anxiety and very little approval, if any, for a job well done. I think that my instructor was just not the kind who gave praise often or easily.
I am also familiar with "Promoting" when a student is ready. But not really comfortable with this as I like to make a big deal out of a promotion, and help make it an important milestone in a student's martial history.
Yes, I have tested students to exhaustion, and been tested that way. But I have also given other students, in other circumstances, generous testing criteria. I do not look for a chance to fail a student, and I generally will not let them test if they are not ready for it. I give lots of pats on the back, hopefully, and encouragement is my main tool, not criticism.
My difficulty comes, (and Dennis you might be able to help me on this), is when I have a student who has learned all the material, works hard in class, helps others, but is still moving at a Primitive level at Blue Belt, occassionally she is Mechanical.
She wants to go for Green, and I explained she needed to work more on how she moved, and gave her some specifics. She also has been coming to Family Class for 3+ years, with 2 different children who have cycled in and out, but she stayed consistant. The problem is I have a Blue Belt moving like an Orange Belt, and progress would be slow even in adult classes for her. At some point she has to be able to actually defend herself, or I have to feel comfortable that she can, since that is my primary concern and value for my students. Blue-Green-Early Browns, for me is the Mechanical Stage, admitidly a "fast mechanical" for Brown, with maybe a little Spontaineous level creeping in.
Quandry for me and it arises with my older, or very young students, since I do not have a different curriculum for kids. Need to look at this also at some point.
Tests, hmmmm. They give me something quantifiable to share with the student, in addition to positive reinforcement and the self-esteem and self-confidence that grows from this.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
I came up under a different system, where no matter how prepared you were, they would keep going until you reached your personal limit, plus a little bit ... or a lot. I hated this!!!!! Lots of anxiety and very little approval, if any, for a job well done. I think that my instructor was just not the kind who gave praise often or easily.
I am also familiar with "Promoting" when a student is ready. But not really comfortable with this as I like to make a big deal out of a promotion, and help make it an important milestone in a student's martial history.
Yes, I have tested students to exhaustion, and been tested that way. But I have also given other students, in other circumstances, generous testing criteria. I do not look for a chance to fail a student, and I generally will not let them test if they are not ready for it. I give lots of pats on the back, hopefully, and encouragement is my main tool, not criticism.
My difficulty comes, (and Dennis you might be able to help me on this), is when I have a student who has learned all the material, works hard in class, helps others, but is still moving at a Primitive level at Blue Belt, occassionally she is Mechanical.
She wants to go for Green, and I explained she needed to work more on how she moved, and gave her some specifics. She also has been coming to Family Class for 3+ years, with 2 different children who have cycled in and out, but she stayed consistant. The problem is I have a Blue Belt moving like an Orange Belt, and progress would be slow even in adult classes for her. At some point she has to be able to actually defend herself, or I have to feel comfortable that she can, since that is my primary concern and value for my students. Blue-Green-Early Browns, for me is the Mechanical Stage, admitidly a "fast mechanical" for Brown, with maybe a little Spontaineous level creeping in.
Quandry for me and it arises with my older, or very young students, since I do not have a different curriculum for kids. Need to look at this also at some point.
Tests, hmmmm. They give me something quantifiable to share with the student, in addition to positive reinforcement and the self-esteem and self-confidence that grows from this.
-Michael
UKS-Texas
Personally, I want to test for my belts. Personally, since I have never really been considered "good at sports" or athletic or whatever, I need that validation. I have a lot of confidence in my instructor, and I know that he only tells us to test when he knows we're going to pass unless we do something really, really stupid like forget short form one or something equally idiotic, and I've never seen someone ask to be tested for the next rank, and I think if they did and weren't ready, the answer would either be "no" or "you can if you want to, but unless you really suprise me, you're not going to pass, so you might as well save the money for the test fee until you're capable of passing it"
I have tested for every rank except green belt. My green belt was just awarded to me, and every time I put it on, there was this little doubt in the back of my mind wondering whether or not I really deserved it, and that didn't go away until I tested for my brown belt. I felt a lot more comfortable in my rank as a brown belt than I had as a green belt because of the test, because I had been given an opportunity to prove to myself as well as the people judging the test that I deserved it.
For me, a test is a chance for me to prove to myself that I deserve the next rank, although I can't say I'm actually looking forward to my black belt test...
I have tested for every rank except green belt. My green belt was just awarded to me, and every time I put it on, there was this little doubt in the back of my mind wondering whether or not I really deserved it, and that didn't go away until I tested for my brown belt. I felt a lot more comfortable in my rank as a brown belt than I had as a green belt because of the test, because I had been given an opportunity to prove to myself as well as the people judging the test that I deserved it.
For me, a test is a chance for me to prove to myself that I deserve the next rank, although I can't say I'm actually looking forward to my black belt test...
OP
tonbo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #29
I guess a lot also depends on how students are set up to test.
Is the test the determining factor? If you live through the test, do you get your rank? Are the testers "pre-screened"--i.e., do you have tab/stripe evaluations before tests?
As I mentioned before somewhere, at our school, students *can* test for possible "promotion" every five weeks. Basically, we have the belts, and then we have "tabs" or "stripes" between belts: each "between" (up to Black Belts, anyway) consists of two black tabs and one red one. When you test for and receive your first black tab, it shows you have passed off half of the material towards your next belt; testing for and receiving the second black tab shows you have passed off all of the material for your next belt. After the second black tab, you have a minimum of five weeks to "polish" your material before testing for your red tab. The red tab is the "ticket" to the next belt test.
All tab evaluations are done in class for the lower belts, and in a special evaluation for green and higher.
Again, the trick here is that the instructors are pretty much *constantly* evaluating students; the evaluations are so that the student can see their progress or lack thereof, and also so that instructors can more easily determine those that may need more individualized attention (those with long times inbetween tabs, where you know they should be progressing faster). The tab evaluations are mostly formality--they train the students to expect the "pressure" of the belt test and to work under "actual test conditions". In most cases, if a student is giving their best and they know their material, they will do fine. They also drive their testing schedule, for the most part. If a student doesn't want to test for a tab, they are not forced to. That way, THEY determine when they feel "right", and can progress on their own schedule. (This doesn't always work out at higher levels....occasionally, people get "volunteered" to test, when the instructor knows they are ready).
The only people who get to go to the tests, then, are the people who are ready. They have earned their ticket, and when they earn their red tab, they have essentially already earned their belt. The actual belt "test" is a bit scary, but not a deadly endurance test. The "scary" part is that you don't know just *which* techniques will be required to be done, or what you may have to do as an individual (techniques/forms). Also, it is a bit scary for some to be doing techniques/forms in "public"--i.e., with parents and friends present. Again, however, you have to REALLY screw up (stand totally still, sit down, pass out, etc.) to not get your belt at this point. Tests are all of a set length--everything up to Black is only about 45 minutes long. Black Belt tests tend to run about an hour or an hour and a half, depending on the number of students, and is more "scripted", so that individual skills can be highlighted. These are also more of an "Advanced Belt Test", where brown ranks can also be awarded (thus, you get people going for brown and up in these tests, but they are mostly geared toward the Black and upper Black ranks).
The formality is, like Nightingale pointed out, a major thing for most people. Feeling like they "worked for" or "won" their belt is a major consideration. They also like the fact that there is some ceremony to it.
When I earned my green belt, it was also like Nightingale said....I was REALLY disappointed with my test. When the test let out, I approached one of the Black Belts and told him I didn't think I performed well enough to earn my belt. He told me, "Don't worry about it. You earned your belt over the last few years. Today we just let you pick it up. We know how you move, and you wouldn't be here if you weren't ready." Made all the difference to me, and I was able to happily wear it after that.
Peace--
Is the test the determining factor? If you live through the test, do you get your rank? Are the testers "pre-screened"--i.e., do you have tab/stripe evaluations before tests?
As I mentioned before somewhere, at our school, students *can* test for possible "promotion" every five weeks. Basically, we have the belts, and then we have "tabs" or "stripes" between belts: each "between" (up to Black Belts, anyway) consists of two black tabs and one red one. When you test for and receive your first black tab, it shows you have passed off half of the material towards your next belt; testing for and receiving the second black tab shows you have passed off all of the material for your next belt. After the second black tab, you have a minimum of five weeks to "polish" your material before testing for your red tab. The red tab is the "ticket" to the next belt test.
All tab evaluations are done in class for the lower belts, and in a special evaluation for green and higher.
Again, the trick here is that the instructors are pretty much *constantly* evaluating students; the evaluations are so that the student can see their progress or lack thereof, and also so that instructors can more easily determine those that may need more individualized attention (those with long times inbetween tabs, where you know they should be progressing faster). The tab evaluations are mostly formality--they train the students to expect the "pressure" of the belt test and to work under "actual test conditions". In most cases, if a student is giving their best and they know their material, they will do fine. They also drive their testing schedule, for the most part. If a student doesn't want to test for a tab, they are not forced to. That way, THEY determine when they feel "right", and can progress on their own schedule. (This doesn't always work out at higher levels....occasionally, people get "volunteered" to test, when the instructor knows they are ready).
The only people who get to go to the tests, then, are the people who are ready. They have earned their ticket, and when they earn their red tab, they have essentially already earned their belt. The actual belt "test" is a bit scary, but not a deadly endurance test. The "scary" part is that you don't know just *which* techniques will be required to be done, or what you may have to do as an individual (techniques/forms). Also, it is a bit scary for some to be doing techniques/forms in "public"--i.e., with parents and friends present. Again, however, you have to REALLY screw up (stand totally still, sit down, pass out, etc.) to not get your belt at this point. Tests are all of a set length--everything up to Black is only about 45 minutes long. Black Belt tests tend to run about an hour or an hour and a half, depending on the number of students, and is more "scripted", so that individual skills can be highlighted. These are also more of an "Advanced Belt Test", where brown ranks can also be awarded (thus, you get people going for brown and up in these tests, but they are mostly geared toward the Black and upper Black ranks).
The formality is, like Nightingale pointed out, a major thing for most people. Feeling like they "worked for" or "won" their belt is a major consideration. They also like the fact that there is some ceremony to it.
When I earned my green belt, it was also like Nightingale said....I was REALLY disappointed with my test. When the test let out, I approached one of the Black Belts and told him I didn't think I performed well enough to earn my belt. He told me, "Don't worry about it. You earned your belt over the last few years. Today we just let you pick it up. We know how you move, and you wouldn't be here if you weren't ready." Made all the difference to me, and I was able to happily wear it after that.
Peace--
I had the ceremony for my green belt, just not the test itself. My instructor told me flat out that I'd earned it and I deserved it, but I still felt a little funny every time I put it on, because even though I may have earned it in his eyes, I hadn't earned it in mine.
Goldendragon7
Grandmaster
so if you really feel that way..... then work extra hard and be that much better for your next promotion....... whenever that may be.
Always remain a student....... no matter how well you feel you did...... there is always more to learn....
:asian:
Always remain a student....... no matter how well you feel you did...... there is always more to learn....
:asian:
The people I learn so much from now are the white belts... They ask me questions that I've never thought of, and I either have to stop, think, and figure out the answer, or I have to tell them I'll get back to them and go find the answer myself.
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And THAT is the first step in becoming a Teacher!
OP
tonbo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #34
More truth could not be spoken than that.
There is so much to learn out there that it is hard to even begin.....to know what you don't know, so to speak. Just finding *that* much out can be daunting. And, given the ladder of success, some people don't even want to climb it, others make it halfway and claim success--it's the rare few who realize that they have to go *all* the way up to get the full experience.
I'll say it again.....after getting my Black, I in NO way felt that I had reached the "top". Not even close. The way I look at it, I have now proven that I am willing to learn, so now maybe I can start learning the "good stuff". More often than not, I walk out of my class shaking my head and laughing, because I have seen new things in a technique or in sparring....things that were always there, but I hadn't seen them. Maybe I didn't know what to look for, or how to look for it, but now.....
I love being a student. I love the learning. Best of all, I love the sense of accomplishment and wonder that I get when something new is "revealed". All these lightbulbs going off.....
I think the best part of the whole process is when I have learned something well (and correctly!!) enough to pass it on to someone else. Watching their eyes light up as I know mine did is really rewarding. Ah, the joys of teaching......!!!
Peace--
There is so much to learn out there that it is hard to even begin.....to know what you don't know, so to speak. Just finding *that* much out can be daunting. And, given the ladder of success, some people don't even want to climb it, others make it halfway and claim success--it's the rare few who realize that they have to go *all* the way up to get the full experience.
I'll say it again.....after getting my Black, I in NO way felt that I had reached the "top". Not even close. The way I look at it, I have now proven that I am willing to learn, so now maybe I can start learning the "good stuff". More often than not, I walk out of my class shaking my head and laughing, because I have seen new things in a technique or in sparring....things that were always there, but I hadn't seen them. Maybe I didn't know what to look for, or how to look for it, but now.....
I love being a student. I love the learning. Best of all, I love the sense of accomplishment and wonder that I get when something new is "revealed". All these lightbulbs going off.....
I think the best part of the whole process is when I have learned something well (and correctly!!) enough to pass it on to someone else. Watching their eyes light up as I know mine did is really rewarding. Ah, the joys of teaching......!!!
Peace--
its great when you see the lightbulb finally go on... the kids get a huge smile...its the most rewarding thing in the world.
OP
tonbo
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #36
It is very rewarding to see lightbulbs, no doubt.
The adults are fun to watch, because they get a little smile and most of the time will nod their head. Occasionally, they will respond with a "cool" or "nice" or something like that as well.
Kids, however, most often act like they just got a Christmas present. They smile REAL big, give an emphatic "COOOL!" or "That's AWESOME!" kind of answer, and then want to play with the new "toy". Always makes me laugh....
Peace--
The adults are fun to watch, because they get a little smile and most of the time will nod their head. Occasionally, they will respond with a "cool" or "nice" or something like that as well.
Kids, however, most often act like they just got a Christmas present. They smile REAL big, give an emphatic "COOOL!" or "That's AWESOME!" kind of answer, and then want to play with the new "toy". Always makes me laugh....
Peace--
OP
Kirk
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #37
Then at 33, call me a kid
OP
Rob_Broad
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #38
I believe that a student should never fail a test. they should never be allowed to grade until they are ready. The testing proceedure should be a time for them to showcase what the have learned, not some grotesquely formal function where the person is almost ready to faint.
People start training for various reasons, but they continue training because it is fun. we shouldn't make it such an arduaous event that some people quit for fear fo failure, it is our job to uplift them not compound their fears.
People start training for various reasons, but they continue training because it is fun. we shouldn't make it such an arduaous event that some people quit for fear fo failure, it is our job to uplift them not compound their fears.
satans.barber
Master Black Belt
Faint, I should be so lucky, I got worked so hard at my last grading (which wasn't even a proper grading, we were just going through the motions with everyone else for practice) that I was sick
We'd done a load of sparring for a good while, then we had 30 second rest and went straight into 2 minute rounds (2 mins hands, 2 mins legs, 2 mins elbows and knees and then 2 mins everything to finsih). Phil was holding the pads for me on the last ones and he started running backwards around the hall and I was chasing him trying to hit the pads, that was it. My stomach knotted up and I had to run out of the fire door and vomit.
It was terribly embarrasing and nobody else did it (or has done before) so I wasn't (and aren't) very happy about it. Although Glen said he did it in his grading at that level and Bod did as well, although I wasn't there.
Hopefully I'll be fitter for when I grade for black belt, but I was pretty fit then and I don't feel /that/ different, so I'm none too happy about it. Much more worried about the fitness and stamina than I am about my ability to do the techniques, which I'm sure shouldn't be the case.
Ian.
My instructor never asks people to test unless he is certain they're going to pass. However, I've seen people really mess up and not pass (green belts getting flustered and forgetting orange belt techniques and short 1, or something silly like that), or they get cocky, knowing that in the instructor's mind, they've already passed. He usually tacks their belts on the wall and retests them in a week or so, and then they take life more seriously and pass.
In the studio, in class, sure, you can do all your techniques and forms, and you know everything you ought to for your next belt. A test looks at can you perform under a bit of pressure, another form of training. Can you still do your technique when its a very intimidating black belt throwing a punch just a little harder than usual, with five more standing around you, arms crossed, just looking...mean. If you can do it in that situation with that kind of distraction, you can probably do it in the street, and kenpo is meant for street self defense. It doesn't make any sense to never test/work under pressure, because then when the pressure is really on, you've never experienced any kind of real intimidation factor, you freeze up. I am really grateful for the chance to work with a lot of intimidation, because when I faced it in the street, it was that familiar feeling of dread, of what is this guy gonna do, and because of my tests, I'd had a little bit of experience dealing with feelings that could have been paralyzing, but because they were familiar, I was able to react instead of freeze.
dunno if that makes any sense...
