Technique Internalization

[Doc]

Sir:

What do you think about super slow training? Example: extending your arm forward during one exhalation and retreating the arm inward during the inhalation.

Do you think this type of training has it's place here or should we discard it?

Yours,

Jagdish

There is nothing wrong with this kind of training. It was created because when training slow your mistakes, once you know the material, are morely easily discerned by you. However, this type of training is very slow in inculcating the information, and even then it is in "soft muscle memory."

A good teacher can get you up to speed but it takes close scruitiny and the eye of a super teacher, and not just a so-called instructor to get you there. You need someone who sees everything and knows how to correct it from many years of experience in and teaching the science. Many would like to claim the position, but would be exposed in a second in the presence of the real deal.

 

[MHeeler]

Actually Pete, muscles do have memory. Th entire body is a conduit of learned memories and experiences that can and do operate outside conscious and directed thought.

Just curious as to what is meant by this. Muscles, technically speaking, only serve two functions: to contract and relax. The cells which make up muscle groups are incapable of storing any information. The term "muscle memory" is often bandied about when referring to the ability to remember movement sequences. The correct term for this is "motor memory" or "procedural memory." But, this has nothing to do with the muscle cells. Recent research suggests that the cerebellum (along with the basal ganglia and hippocampus among others) is mainly responsible for this phenomenon.

The term "muscle memory" was actually introduced to describe a phenomenon in weight-lifting. When a trained weight-lifter comes back to training after a long break, he may find that he re-acquires his strength much quicker than he gained it the first time. This is because the muscles fibers have become accustomed to stress. Therefore, it is easier for trained muscles to recruit additional motor units within the muscle in order to adapt to said stress.

Was the above quote meant as an esoteric statement, or was there something specific you were referring to?

Thanks,
MH

 

[distalero]

Can't speak for anyone else, of course, but one theory has it that, similar to true reflex arcs, the impulses for certain movement can travel "imprinted" (if you will) pathways. Your point's well taken, though: movement, sensation, intent are components of a symphony, not a single instrument.

 

[pete]

Muscles, technically speaking, only serve two functions: to contract and relax. The cells which make up muscle groups are incapable of storing any information. The term "muscle memory" is often bandied about when referring to the ability to remember movement sequences. The correct term for this is "motor memory" or "procedural memory." But, this has nothing to do with the muscle cells. Recent research suggests that the cerebellum (along with the basal ganglia and hippocampus among others) is mainly responsible for this phenomenon.

this is also what i was taught. i was also told that in 2002 science had discovered that 'memory' also ran down the spine. this accounts for the ability to train/remember reflex actions. pete.

 

[Drifter]

Do it right first, break it down second, do it right and fast last. Practice every day.

If you do three reps of every technique you have a day, for a year, correctly, that's 1095 correct repetitions of all that you have in your arsenal.

In five years, that's 5478 correct repetitions (gotta include the leap year), not including any class time, extra review, etc.

That's just more incentive to practice hard every day. If you do only one rep a day of each technique, it takes you close to three years to get up to 1000 reps. Work hard.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Just curious as to what is meant by this. Muscles, technically speaking, only serve two functions: to contract and relax. The cells which make up muscle groups are incapable of storing any information. The term "muscle memory" is often bandied about when referring to the ability to remember movement sequences. The correct term for this is "motor memory" or "procedural memory." But, this has nothing to do with the muscle cells. Recent research suggests that the cerebellum (along with the basal ganglia and hippocampus among others) is mainly responsible for this phenomenon.

The term "muscle memory" was actually introduced to describe a phenomenon in weight-lifting. When a trained weight-lifter comes back to training after a long break, he may find that he re-acquires his strength much quicker than he gained it the first time. This is because the muscles fibers have become accustomed to stress. Therefore, it is easier for trained muscles to recruit additional motor units within the muscle in order to adapt to said stress.

Was the above quote meant as an esoteric statement, or was there something specific you were referring to?

Thanks,
MH

Go back through your notes from neuro. Most brain parts, including basal ganglia, remain "not fully known" with respect to function as it relates to motor/proprioceptive control, RAS, and many other wonderful things. The colloquialism "muscle memory" has been used well before body-builders (early strong men) knew what a motor unit was, or about the nature of recruitment. Which, by the way, also remains under investigation. (i.e., diff btw "all or nothing", peripheral or collateral recruitment, and so on...if Mezner's right, then we should have the damndest time putting coffee to our lips without knocking our teeth out).

Muscle memory, in the sense of multiple motor units governed by similar LMN & UMN reflex arcs is still very much an entity alive and under investigation by different sides of the coin, with one group substantiating that such a critter is very real, and the other side substantiating that the critter must be renamed because it just ain't so. I'm thinking, if cellular memory can be demonstrated in the contractile cells of flatworms, it's a bit arrogant to assume it don't exist in us.

Remember: Muscles contract in concert to demand, with greater demands exhibiting the ability of a contracting muscle cell to place enough tension on the walls of neighboring cells to get them to contract as well, even without the initial executive command from the governing neuron of the motor unit of the second system. They can, like any other cell, be conditioned. Increasingly, evidence in surfacing that suggests that memory over function is not resident in the neurological system, but by the cells themselves.

One study in support of a position does not a revolution make.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Jagdish]

There is nothing wrong with this kind of training. It was created because when training slow your mistakes, once you know the material, are morely easily discerned by you. However, this type of training is very slow in inculcating the information, and even then it is in "soft muscle memory."

A good teacher can get you up to speed but it takes close scruitiny and the eye of a super teacher, and not just a so-called instructor to get you there. You need someone who sees everything and knows how to correct it from many years of experience in and teaching the science. Many would like to claim the position, but would be exposed in a second in the presence of the real deal.

Sir:

If one is forced to train alone and wants to do slow training:

Do you recomend doing it everyday as sole training or mixing it up with more fastest and powerful moves( monday to sunday?).

How many techniques can one work on in one single session? In my experience 5/6 techniques is quite good (both side took into account) but doing more can exhaust the nervous system. Note: working very technique more than 10 times.Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[Doc]

Sir:

If one is forced to train alone and wants to do slow training:

Do you recomend doing it everyday as sole training or mixing it up with more fastest and powerful moves( monday to sunday?).

How many techniques can one work on in one single session? In my experience 5/6 techniques is quite good (both side took into account) but doing more can exhaust the nervous system. Note: working very technique more than 10 times.Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

I'm sorry but I think you miss my point. You need an instructor to perfect the movement(s) for you, which are forever changing and ongoing. Singular Execution Training still requires teacher scruitiny. A person may only practice what the teacher approves and when he approves it, until the teacher changes it. To mimic is the lowest form of learning and produces minimal skill at best, and certainly nothing worthy of rank. The instructor trains and corrects you until he is satisfied with a movement. Then he may suggest you "work on it" for a period alone. Then he will move you on to something else repeating the process. You will spend far more time under a direct instructors guidance than without.

Football is a game with minimal fundamental skills in comparison, but watching and mimicking a video will never get you into a game with skill. Not even Pop Warner. Fighting puts your life on the line and is much more dynamic, complex, and lethally unforgiving in reality.

There is no such thing as "forced to train alone." There are viable ways to do something and there are not. In life there are somethings that will not be accessable when we want them. Some things may never be obtained. We must take care that time invested is spent wisely and wasting time on something that produces minimal use is a personal decision.

Those who produce and sell videos would like you to believe they are providing a service to you. They are not. What they are doing is making money, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Just remember you usually get what you pay for, and let the buyer beware. When you compare the cost of classes over time to the one time cost of a video, you begin to realize the worth of what you have. Me, I'd rather read a book than pretend I'm learning how to protect myself by watching a video. It's just not going to happen, no matter how much we want it to happen.

The real world has standards that must be met, or we fail. No matter how good we feel about ourselves because of somethng we did, those standards don't change. We meet or exceed them, or you don't. Sometimes when you don't, you die. Its that serious for me. For you, only you can say.

 

[SION]

Sir:

If one is forced to train alone and wants to do slow training:

Jagdish, I see that you are from Madrid and a member of the IKKA, do you not have a training partner? If not you should look up Carlos.
Why would you want to train alone? all the major benefits of training with an instructor of good repute can I am sure be yours in that area.

 

[Jagdish]

I'm sorry but I think you miss my point. You need an instructor to perfect the movement(s) for you, which are forever changing and ongoing. Singular Execution Training still requires teacher scruitiny. A person may only practice what the teacher approves and when he approves it, until the teacher changes it. To mimic is the lowest form of learning and produces minimal skill at best, and certainly nothing worthy of rank. The instructor trains and corrects you until he is satisfied with a movement. Then he may suggest you "work on it" for a period alone. Then he will move you on to something else repeating the process. You will spend far more time under a direct instructors guidance than without.

Football is a game with minimal fundamental skills in comparison, but watching and mimicking a video will never get you into a game with skill. Not even Pop Warner. Fighting puts your life on the line and is much more dynamic, complex, and lethally unforgiving in reality.

There is no such thing as "forced to train alone." There are viable ways to do something and there are not. In life there are somethings that will not be accessable when we want them. Some things may never be obtained. We must take care that time invested is spent wisely and wasting time on something that produces minimal use is a personal decision.

Those who produce and sell videos would like you to believe they are providing a service to you. They are not. What they are doing is making money, and that is not necessarily a bad thing. Just remember you usually get what you pay for, and let the buyer beware. When you compare the cost of classes over time to the one time cost of a video, you begin to realize the worth of what you have. Me, I'd rather read a book than pretend I'm learning how to protect myself by watching a video. It's just not going to happen, no matter how much we want it to happen.

The real world has standards that must be met, or we fail. No matter how good we feel about ourselves because of somethng we did, those standards don't change. We meet or exceed them, or you don't. Sometimes when you don't, you die. Its that serious for me. For you, only you can say.

Sir:

Excuse my words, what i was referring for was once you got the instruction and when you have time for lone practice, (you know, others practicioners tend to do general physical preparation,or jogging, or hitting heavy bag or cross train in other arts, or take yoga clasess,etc.) do you consider within these circumstances and as part of lone training if slow training of more than 5/6 techniqies is adequate? I am referring from a advance student point of view.

For me slow training means to remove all unnecessary tension from the body and building proper neuro pathways. (I think chinese masters already knew this but they tend not to be very informative. Then the mystic of qi took over.)The less tension in the body the best possible performance one can do,it means to be effective with the technique.

Also when discussing with practicioners of other arts who seem to try too hard when performing their techniques and when you just suggest slow training they tend to look at you as they are talking to a freaky/weird.

You suggest that they should take it eady and try slow training for a season but in this world everybody seem to know.

Thanks for taking your time ,sir. :asian:

Yours,

Jagdish

P.S:May be i am thinking too much.

 

[MHeeler]

Go back through your notes from neuro. Most brain parts, including basal ganglia, remain "not fully known" with respect to function as it relates to motor/proprioceptive control, RAS, and many other wonderful things. The colloquialism "muscle memory" has been used well before body-builders (early strong men) knew what a motor unit was, or about the nature of recruitment. Which, by the way, also remains under investigation. (i.e., diff btw "all or nothing", peripheral or collateral recruitment, and so on...if Mezner's right, then we should have the damndest time putting coffee to our lips without knocking our teeth out).

Muscle memory, in the sense of multiple motor units governed by similar LMN & UMN reflex arcs is still very much an entity alive and under investigation by different sides of the coin, with one group substantiating that such a critter is very real, and the other side substantiating that the critter must be renamed because it just ain't so. I'm thinking, if cellular memory can be demonstrated in the contractile cells of flatworms, it's a bit arrogant to assume it don't exist in us.

Remember: Muscles contract in concert to demand, with greater demands exhibiting the ability of a contracting muscle cell to place enough tension on the walls of neighboring cells to get them to contract as well, even without the initial executive command from the governing neuron of the motor unit of the second system. They can, like any other cell, be conditioned. Increasingly, evidence in surfacing that suggests that memory over function is not resident in the neurological system, but by the cells themselves.

One study in support of a position does not a revolution make.

Regards,

Dave

Absolutely. No specific part of the brain is "fully known" as it pertains to anything. The brain truly will be the final frontier of medicine. However, that does not in any way suggest anything about the role of muscle tissue in procedural memory. Recruitment, I agree, is an interesting phenomenon. But, once again, this is not any form of "memory." At best, it would be the loosest definition of the word. Similarly, any tissue in the body could be said to have memory of its own function, when the truth is rather that these functions are simply encoded in DNA and then carried out by the tissues that are formed as a result of DNA transcription.

You yourself referred to upper and lower motor neurons as the key player in reflex arcs. These are not muscle tissue, but nervous tissue. I have no argument with you here. The arc consists of receptor, afferent neuron, interneuron (possibly), efferent neuron, and effector organ (muscle, in this case). The muscle itself does not house any memory of this function; it simply follows the direction of the incoming nervous impulse. Rather, it is the nervous tissue and the synaptic interactions that carry out the meat of this phenomenon.

You once again refer to recruitment with regard to greater contractile demand. But, as I said earlier, this would have to be a very loose definition of "memory." As far as your reference to "surfacing," I must admit that I am unaware of the term. I've not come across it before, but if you wouldn't mind, please explain.

I'm not sure which singular study you are referencing. The information I have written above has been extensively studied and peer reviewed. Granted, there is still some ongoing discourse as to specific mechanisms, but that is the nature of scientific inquiry. The fact that we are still attempting to explain "how" something happens, does not negate the fact that it does indeed happen.

Thanks for the dialog.
MH

 

[MHeeler]

After re-reading the posts, I realize that you probably meant to say "evidence IS surfacing" rather than referring to "surfacing" as a specific phenomenon. So, chalk it up to me being a retard and disregard the last part of my post. Still, I am curious as to what evidence you're citing.

Thanks,
MH