Technique Internalization

[NTDeveloper]

I have heard it said before that one must do a technique 500 times before it becomes ingrained into "muscle memory" and is thus available for spontaneous usage.

Now, I'm rather doubtful that 500 is some magic number and of course different people will respond differently to training; however, I would presume that there is some sort of average number out there that would serve as a useful yardstick.

Additionally, I would also guess that technique internalization is also a function of time. That is, doing Five Swords 500 times on the same day would probably not be as beneficial as, say, doing Five Swords 5 times/day for 100 days.

I would be interested in others comments on this. Has there been any relevant scientific research done in this area? Are there any stories that you can relate about yourself or others with respect to technique internalization?

 

[dubljay]

Well I have no data on scientific research but I do have my own experience.

I dont know of any magic number about internalization, but you are right it is a function of time and repitition. However I think there is more to it than that. A person can repeat the technique over and over without actually enguaging their mind. I know you were discussing "muscle memory" but the mind has to take an active role in guiding the body. Repeating a technique without analyzing it and your movements is useless. It is akin to "cramming" for an exam. You may "read" the material, but unless you focus on the context of the material and not just the text itself it is of no use.

Just my opinion and I could be wrong.

-Josh

 

[Bill Lear]

How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?

I would say that the number of repititions it would take someone to internalize a given technique would vary from person to person.

:idunno:

 

[Zoran]

I feel that the length of time you practice the tech effects it more than the actual number of times you practice it. If your crazy enough, you could concievably do a tech 500 times in a day.:whip:

Repeating a technique without analyzing it and your movements is useless.

I agree here to a point. I find some students may focus too much on analyzing and not enough of doing. So there is a need for balance. In the beginning you should be doing a lot less thinking and more of just doing. You need to get the proper mechanics down before you can analyze it to death.

 

[Mekosho]

I agree with Zoran on the OVER analyzing, as I find myself doing this way to often in class, we are given a tech. then we break it down, then I break it down more, then I break down those pieces and well then, class is over and while all else actually practiced a technique, I spent class piecing it together...discussing it, etc.

As far as the 500 times in a day as opposed to 5 at 100 days, I would imagine the idea of 100 days would be more beneficial as that gives muscle recovery time and you would always be fresh, ensuring that you do the tech with proper form each time...

 

[pete]

big difference between internalizing and memorizing...

first, muscles don't have memories. the brain does and so does the spine. internalizing means moving from the inside out, from your center to your extremities. by practicing this for years, you will learn to connect your mind with your center through the spine, thus internalize your movement and technique.

memorization is external, and limited to how many techniques you have the mental capacity to remember the external moves to in a sequentially order... like 1.step back, 2.block, 3.punch, etc.

this is my goal, probably since i have exhausted my mental capacity for the latter...

pete

 

[Ray]

...ensuring that you do the tech with proper form each time...

Although the small quote may not truely express what Mekosho said, I'd still like to highlight the thought about: Proper form each time.

There is another thread conversing about some technique video clips on a particular website. The views expressed about the clips are that the techniques are weak/poorly done. Execution should be done at the very best possible level, otherwise we risk spontaneous medicority (or worse).

If, when learning a technique, we have to go through it slowly and "by the numbers" then we should. We can increase our speed incrementally. At least, that's my feeling on it. Somebody said: practice makes permanent, perfect practice makes perfect.

I was once told that if you practice a technique 1,000 times then it's yours. I took that to mean learn it and keep reviewing/practicing it.

 

[dubljay]

You need to get the proper mechanics down before you can analyze it to death.

Good point Zoran. Analyze was a bad choice of a word but it was the best I could come up with. What I was trying to imply was that often times people have a tendency to go through the motions and "tune out" their mind. As pete pointed out "muscle memory" is reliant on the mind and the spinal cord, the mind has to be involved to gain "muscle memory". Its like the difference between listening to a lecture and taking notes during a lecture. Takeing notes has more value than the notes themselves for future reference, the act of writing the notes forces the person to first interperate the words of the lecture then reproduce them. So when working techniques (whether you "know" them or not) dont rush blindly thrugh them, take your time and make mental notes (or actual notes if that helps too) of your timing and body mechanics.

 

[distalero]

I think it's a combination of both repetition and time as the general condition, with no set parameters, but it's also the person and all the variables (individual anatomy and physiology, intent, price of tea in China, etc) that are brought to the practice by that person. Interesting thread because it sort of obliquely touches on another "discussion", had primarily by teachers, about imposing a ridgidly specific set of movements on a student (for whatever benefit) vs. teaching the motion and allowing them to find their eventual best expression, THEIR underlying "sweet spot" in each aspect of a technique. (There is a tendency to presuppose that one is more valid or advanced than the other. Welllllll, maybe, maybe not. In my view there's only a small distinction between the two at best). I think, actually I know from personal experience, that time and repetition also can bring something else to movement, although I hesitate to mention it. (Insert weird Twilight Zone music here) Maybe someone else out there can relate to this: with time and repetition, against a number of workout opponents, perhaps more in sparring than in technique practice per se, comes not only an internalization of specific moves, but also a kind of "awareness" or "knowing" that I'm not able to really describe. It's a kind of non physical "contact" or engagement with the opponent that allows you to somehow feel where they are in relation to you, and how to move your position accordingly. In other words, internalizing moves is not the end to it all. Doing this is only a kind of "pilot light" that will possibly be lit if you continue on. In still other words, internalized movement, as necessary as it is, is still not quite living movement. It has nothing to do with science, or mental concepts, or hypervigilance, or thinking at all. You'll know it, if and when you experience it. Have you?

 

[KenpoDave]

When movement is practiced under adrenal stress conditions, the "muscle memory" happens much faster.

 

[Doc]

big difference between internalizing and memorizing...

first, muscles don't have memories. the brain does and so does the spine. internalizing means moving from the inside out, from your center to your extremities. by practicing this for years, you will learn to connect your mind with your center through the spine, thus internalize your movement and technique.

memorization is external, and limited to how many techniques you have the mental capacity to remember the external moves to in a sequentially order... like 1.step back, 2.block, 3.punch, etc.

this is my goal, probably since i have exhausted my mental capacity for the latter...

pete

Actually Pete, muscles do have memory. Th entire body is a conduit of learned memories and experiences that can and do operate outside conscious and directed thought.

 

[Doc]

When movement is practiced under adrenal stress conditions, the "muscle memory" happens much faster.

Actually subjecting "muscle memory' to an Adrenal Dump does not develop synaptic pathways of execution any faster. A foundation or "soft muscle memory" must be developed first.

 

[bdparsons]

Actually subjecting "muscle memory' to an Adrenal Dump does not develop synaptic pathways of execution any faster. A foundation or "soft muscle memory" must be developed first.

Bingo, you hit the nail right on the head. There is a common miconception that in any and all adrenal dump situations the body defaults to gross body movements. This only holds true if fine motor skills have not been trained properly. If through proper repetition the increased stress level is trained, then the finer motor skills do in fact not disappear.The key is repeated proper executions in a non-stress evironment coupled with more repetitions in progressively more stressful environments.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[SION]

Remember the old saying "Practice makes perfect" I have heard an updated one, due to the fact that, if you keep practicing something that is incorrect, you will only compound a possible problem. So remember "Perfect practice makes perfect"

Go slow make the move’s large then round of the corners over time.



KJM

 

[MJS]

How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?

I would say that the number of repititions it would take someone to internalize a given technique would vary from person to person.

:idunno:

I agree with Billy. Each person will progress at different levels. I do feel though that the more you do something, the better you'll be at it. Look at our daily activities...tie our shoes, driving, performing our daily duties at our job. These are all things that we do without having to think. The more you do something, anything, the less we have to think about it. Its more of a second nature.

Mike

 

[Rick Wade]

How many licks does it take to get to the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Roll Pop?

I would say that the number of repititions it would take someone to internalize a given technique would vary from person to person.

:idunno:

:idea: 3 at least that is what the owl said on that commercial during the 70s. Am I dating myself?

 

[Touch Of Death]

I agree with Zoran on the OVER analyzing, as I find myself doing this way to often in class, we are given a tech. then we break it down, then I break it down more, then I break down those pieces and well then, class is over and while all else actually practiced a technique, I spent class piecing it together...discussing it, etc.

...

This statement bothers me a little. I think class time is well spent when you are being taught something you don't already know. If you want to repeat a tech on bodies get toguether after class, and schedule other times with your fellow students to do the busy work. It sounds to me like you are getting your money's worth.
Sean

 

[KenpoDave]

Actually subjecting "muscle memory' to an Adrenal Dump does not develop synaptic pathways of execution any faster. A foundation or "soft muscle memory" must be developed first.

The research that I have read states otherwise. It may not be synaptic pathways of execution that I am speaking of though. What I have read is that you can spend a lifetime practicing movements and then during an adrenal dump, they are not available to you. On the other hand, movements practiced under adrenal stress are.

 

[KenpoDave]

If through proper repetition the increased stress level is trained, then the finer motor skills do in fact not disappear.The key is repeated proper executions in a non-stress evironment coupled with more repetitions in progressively more stressful environments.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

Thank you. Your explanation is much clearer than mine!

 

[Jagdish]

Sir:

What do you think about super slow training? Example: extending your arm forward during one exhalation and retreating the arm inward during the inhalation.

Do you think this type of training has it's place here or should we discard it?

Yours,

Jagdish

Actually subjecting "muscle memory' to an Adrenal Dump does not develop synaptic pathways of execution any faster. A foundation or "soft muscle memory" must be developed first.