Teaching

[MJS]

Hey Mike
I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:

I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
except maybe kicking off those shoes the moment she senses any danger.
Your Brother
John

Yes, I agree with you Brother John! :ultracool Will the toes be injured?? Anything is possible. Coincidentally, I spoke to someone else regarding these very kicks. Here is his reply copied from his forum.

Mike...kicking in any style is all about form. I see many older folks from a Karate style with bad hips and it makes me wonder why. I obviously don't do Karate but some of the kicks within the styles I do have some simularities. But the styles I do stress good form and not making a snapping sound. I think that snapping sound is not good for your knees or the hips. Personally I like the SE Asian kicking methods from Thai and the Filipino methods. Thai round kicking does not hurt the hips. The only broken down Thai fighters are the ones who lost at an early age in Thailand. The Filipino Kun Tao methods have a zoning method which is where the power comes from and the evasive methods come from. Kali/Pananjakman methods are good for in fighting. None of which have a snapping noise done with them.

Mike

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hey Mike
I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:

I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
except maybe kicking off those shoes the moment she senses any danger.
Your Brother
John

Ever had a stiletto heel driven into your instep? KT

 

[Brother John]

Ever had a stiletto heel driven into your instep? KT

first she's gotta get close enough, and in the mean time she's less stable and can't really "ground" herself very well.
I'd bet they'd make quite an impression on my instep, but other than that I think they'd be a liability.

Your Brother
John

 

[Brother John]

I have heard though that they make fine projectiles!!

Your Brother
John

 

[rmcrobertson]

Loved the Ned Beatty ref from, "Superman," and glad to see that I am not the only completely-unique example of a "closed-minded," "arrogant," "traditionalist," after all. Gee...imagine my surprise.

I don't altogether agree about the roundhouse kick, which I was taught--and which I teach--in pretty much the same manner that can be seen in Mr. Parker's very early pamphlets with Tom Gow.

However, I absolutely agree that I've seen more than one martial artist doing things in ways that are going to leave them a mess after a few years. What's more, the way I was taught was that one does NOT, repeat NOT, take (or deliver) shots to the knees, throat, spine, etc., all just to worship the Great God Toughness.

And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.

It's worth perusing Brian Adams' "Deadly Karate Blows: The Medical Implications," both for its descriptions and its inaccuracies.

 

[MJS]

However, I absolutely agree that I've seen more than one martial artist doing things in ways that are going to leave them a mess after a few years. What's more, the way I was taught was that one does NOT, repeat NOT, take (or deliver) shots to the knees, throat, spine, etc., all just to worship the Great God Toughness.

Well, to each his own I guess. Personally, I dont like to get hit in the throat or spine either. Again, it all comes down to personal preference. Even in the sparring that is done during class, contact is made to the face and to the body. If a boxer wants to step into the ring and get hit full power, thats their business.

And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.

Hmmm...Robert, you're a unique person. You teach at a college, you teach at a martial arts school, and you're also a magician that can predict the future. I'm impressed. Now, I may be reading this wrong..I'm certainly not perfect, or as perfect as some who shall remain nameless, but how do you know if you'll ever be attacked?? Now, I'm sure in your typical reply, you'll skirt the issue, but what makes you think that getting attacked by someone is such a rarity?? Granted, we can stay out of trouble spots, but even in the area that you'd think is the safest, something can happen.

Mike

 

[kenpo tiger]

I have heard though that they make fine projectiles!!

Your Brother
John

*chortles* I have to agree there. As to the balance issue, assuming your attacker is close enough for you to get the heel (get it?) strike off, I would imagine that the element of surprise helps a bit here. Fighting with those shoes on? Only in MA flicks and on tv, I guess. I've never tried it - or HAD to try it, thank goodness. Like to be grounded when I strike, for the most part.

Hey Mike. Glad to see someone else being a pest to Robertson. Can I watch?! Huh? Please?

And, Robertson. Isn't kenpo about adapting to what's happening in the moment? A kick can be just a kick, assuming you follow it up, true? KT

 

[pete]

Like to be grounded when I strike...

do i detect a thread drift? no matter, like to see it anywhere!

 

[MJS]

Hey Mike. Glad to see someone else being a pest to Robertson. Can I watch?! Huh? Please?

Of course you can watch. In fact, feel free to join in.

And, Robertson. Isn't kenpo about adapting to what's happening in the moment? A kick can be just a kick, assuming you follow it up, true? KT

You know, now that I go back and re-read something, I find this very interesting. In this quote by Robert

And it is kinda silly to train in ways that are guaranteed to leave long-term damage so that you'll be prepared for some, "street encounter," that has arealtively-low probability of ever occuring.

I find it interesting because of what is being said. Now, isnt all MA training dangerous to a point?? Neck breaks, eye gouges, etc. Why are we training that?

Mike

 

[GAB]

Hi, I have the thought MJS, that Robert is talking the stats. you know how many people get struck with lightning or whats your chances of winning the lotto, vs your chance of being in an altercation of not your choosing?

I believe he makes very good sense on this one and most of his arguements, I just wish he would talk to the masses rather than college students going for their PHD it would be better for them and him, (IMHO).

Query... Who uses a spell check or has to go to the dictionary, regarding his or Doc's post's. Also why would you want to?... Regards, Gary

 

[kenpo tiger]

I find it interesting because of what is being said. Now, isnt all MA training dangerous to a point?? Neck breaks, eye gouges, etc. Why are we training that?

Mike

I think a differentiation needs to be made between the concepts of the damage one does to one's own body during training versus the damage one can do to another person's body during training. We all get popped in various spots during practice of techs. It's educational to know how it feels - so you can make sure to avoid it happening. KT

 

[KenpoTess]

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[Brother John]

Good MOD move Tess!!

I'd really like to read peoples thoughts on the Original topic.

Your Brother
John

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hey guys. I don't think that spelling should be an issue. And I also think that the ideas posted by everyone have merit in one form or another. The point of the thread is I was trying to get discussion going as to whether what the instructor says goes, or if a student is within his/her rights to question what he is being taught. KT

 

[Brother John]

Hey guys. I don't think that spelling should be an issue. And I also think that the ideas posted by everyone have merit in one form or another. The point of the thread is I was trying to get discussion going as to whether what the instructor says goes, or if a student is within his/her rights to question what he is being taught. KT

I think it should be remembered though that there is a real difference between "questioning" that leads to a better understanding and "questioning" that is really just a form of second-guessing the instructor.

When I'm with my instructor, what they say goes...period. That's part & parcel with placing myself in their hands for instruction and 'shaping'. If I don't understand, I'll ask and talk and ponder and WORK it until I understand.
That understanding may be "I disagree" or "OK...I get it". But the later isn't come by easily...nor often.

Your Brother
John

 

[GAB]

Hi, Now I am not quite sure where the moderator is coming from, will we get a letter in our mail box if we are the one, or will it just be locked down?

Maybe I need to go back 60 respondent's and find the direction, never respond to the obvious only to the question? Even through word provocation, and talking down to the rest of the 80% only gets you green points?

Where have I lost the thought on this process?

To many fights and not enough reason, or not enough fights and to much postulation.

Regards, Gary

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...part of my point was actually pretty straightforward.

If you repeatedly take shots to the throat, joints, head, etc. in training, it is a virtual certainly that you will suffer long-term injury. Similarly, Mr. Chap'el argued that kicking in an anatomically-incorrect fashion will virtually guarantee long-term, crippling injury.

Against this, there is the possibility--repeat, the possibility--that one might be attacked on the street and have to hit or get crushed.

Sure, there are risks. Sure, accidents happen. Nonetheless. It is unwise to GUARANTEE injury while preparing for the remote POSSIBILITY of injury.

As for the personal remarks which, as typically, bespeak an attempt to slide by the nature of one's own comments, or to avoid actually considering the issues and thinking about one's arguments, well, they have a certain personal effect...but they actually do a pretty good job of suggesting that I might just have a point.

Train as you like, folks. But do keep it in mind that you're going to be in that body for a while...and ask yourself if you're really willing to pay what, say, NFL players pay for their ability...one hint worth considering is that the average NFL career is now down below four years because of the injuries.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Hi, Now I am not quite sure where the moderator is coming from, will we get a letter in our mail box if we are the one, or will it just be locked down?

Maybe I need to go back 60 respondent's and find the direction, never respond to the obvious only to the question? Even through word provocation, and talking down to the rest of the 80% only gets you green points?

Where have I lost the thought on this process?

To many fights and not enough reason, or not enough fights and to much postulation.

Regards, Gary

Gary,

Could you please tell us your philosophy as to whether your students, if you teach, should be able to question what you are teaching them? Or, as an upper belt in your art, is this also the case? KT

 

[GAB]

Yes,
Robert that is a great observation!
I will be the first to agree with your thought. If it is getting hit with a stick or struck in the throat. To twist the arm a little to show the pain is one thing to twist the skin to show the pain is one thing, to strike someone so hard they carry a bruise for a week is another. pure BS...

The idea of hitting a bag or hitting the bag while imagining it is the throat of someone.

Take the target shooter or the shooter who wants to shoot at objects that resemble man. Do you need to take a bullet to know its devistating effect?

It is the mental make up, of the person who needs to learn, either from a good teacher who is not afraid to step up and say this is crazy, or the student who is not so much in awe, or who has the ability to say, do I want to walk with a cane the rest of my life from 25 on?

Then you have the awe struck, who will do what a teacher say's and not say wait, whats wrong with this picture? He wants to hurt me because he likes to hurt people, not train them to be better he just see's them as fodder.
Reminds me of Basic Boot Camp, not the best move I have ever made.

Yes! If I am going to be able to make 17 million before my 30th birthday, I will do that, but not for the thought that you might encounter danger around every corner and become injured while trying to live the unexpected.

Most persons who take to the arts do not have the mental make up of the person who started them in the first place. This is now a major business, not just some one who wants to take a few good students and perpetuate his art.

They are not the person who took it for protection of his self and others in the line of their work/ethics either. They are looking for a form of self defense and physcial prowess, but not to much danger. They are there for cultivating a form of security they don't have and feel it will benifit them. (IMO)

The smarter ones are not victims of this art just like they are not vicitms if they can avoid it, (lack of intelligence has a lot to play here). To strike a brick wall or a brick to prove you can do it is not my idea of intelligence.
Ego plays a large part in this game, this is one of the reasons I feel that it should not be a contact sport or a contact game either.

I have seen many persons hurt, bad injuries to the knees and other parts of the body that do not recover well, done, no mas.

Only to live the glory in their own mind and then unable to do much other then watch it or talk about it. Sad. I like others, can say this with out feeling like I am a sissy or a person who has not been there.
Others can't so why would I worry about that? I don't.

If only you can teach them before they get hurt. Some need the pain others don't, I referred that to intellegence, I still do.

I feel everyone should go into the service of their country, If we did that we would not have Wars, I believe that.

Regards, Gary

 

[MJS]

One of the requirements for black belt in our school is teaching. When you reach Brown I, and have learned all the requirements for Black, you are assigned a class that you teach once a week. Everyone who teaches has, by virtue of having reached advanced colored belt rank or Black belt, a good working knowledge of the basic techniques and extensions, forms and sets because of time spent in our system and just plain hard work to get to where they are.

We are taught that MSGM Parker encouraged ideas and interpretation of his system, which is why there are different styles of the same art.

My question is: since thought and interpretation are encouraged by the nature of kenpo, if a student is taught something by the head instructor which is interpreted differently but within the proper context (as interpreting a particular portion of a form or set with regard to method or direction of attack) by another instructor, should the student refuse instruction (after requesting help) because he thinks it's wrong? Should the instructor in question refuse to continue teaching that student?

Your thoughts, please.

You know, this thread has been off topic for the past few pages. Why we're discussing kicks, I have no idea. Maybe that should be made into a separate thread. I do belive that the original thread was the post above.

Mike