Teaching

[Doc]

Thanks for the clarification.
And the key word there is if . Sneakers are alot softer than dress shoes, but you're still not going to get the same effect as if you were barefoot.

Huh?

Regardless, if I can kick someone in the chest with the shin and get results, why risk injuring my foot just to kick with the ball??

Unfortunately sir you don't seem to get it. Over and above my original assertion that ultimately you WILL injure yourself, you may get results but not the same results. If your position is to just get some kind of results than that says alot. Following your logic, I will also suggest you stop punching because you might injure your hand. Maybe you should just heel-palm or elbow or something.

Again, it all comes down to personal preferrence. I prefer to kick with the shin.

I'm shocked!

 

[Rob Broad]

Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique. After that the art gets tailored to the individual. I have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique. After that the art gets tailored to the individual. I have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.

Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.

DarK LorD

 

[Rob Broad]

Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.

DarK LorD

I just like to point out the obvious.

 

[Rob Broad]

Could swear I read something like that a few weeks, months, and years ago from a 6th that posted here LOL.

DarK LorD

I just like to point out the obvious. And that Desert Yeti usually was on the money most of the time.

 

[MJS]

Huh?

I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct? That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct? If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes. Now, if someone was wearing steel toed boots, that would be different.

Unfortunately sir you don't seem to get it. Over and above my original assertion that ultimately you WILL injure yourself, you may get results but not the same results. If your position is to just get some kind of results than that says alot. Following your logic, I will also suggest you stop punching because you might injure your hand. Maybe you should just heel-palm or elbow or something.

As for results...I want the best results possible. For example, I can stab someone with a pencil and get results, but I can stab someone with a knife and still get results, but better ones. My example of the results that I wish to achieve I feel can be attained greater by using the shin. I would think that you'd get much greater results with a Thai style kick over the ball of the foot.

As for punching....well, there is always the chance that you can break your hand. A heel palm or elbow strike can be just as good or better than a punch.

I'm shocked!

So am I.

Mike

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I dunno, Doc. I'm pretty keen on kicking with the distal 1/3 of my shin, too. Ball-o-the-foot roundhouse certainly provides a smaller point of contact (that whole arrow-tip vs. boxing glove thing, re- PSI), but there is just something satisfying about crashing into either the ilio-tibial band, adductor hiatus with all it's nerves, veins and arteries, or the fibular head at the inferior joint line at the lateral aspect of the knee with the thickness of the tibia near the ankle joint. Feels like taking a ball bat to the joint, rather than the softness of the toe-in ball of the foot position.

Given that all rules have exceptions, one I always suspected held water was that, thje more joints/parts there are between the striking weapon and the torso, the weaker the striking weapon (i.e., finger spear, vs. palm heel, vs inward elbow...further out from the torso, and the more joints, the less stable the natural weapon).

Ball-in roundhouse adds the ankle, talocalcaneonavicular joint complex (TCN) in an open-packed position, and multiple tarsals to the distance between the weapon and the body, when compared to the distal shin. Additionally, the whipping action one can create with the coordinated use of hip flexors & thigh extensors (at least) feels like it's sending a greater force communication than the ball-in roundhouse. In contrast, the ball roundhouse feels like it depletes the force by the knee moving into extension, away from the delivery point of the foot.

I'm curious about the components you find unsatisfactory about the "Thai" roundhouse, and why.

Regards,

Dave.

 

[Doc]

Going to the original point of this thread I would like to say that I think all the instructors should be teaching the exact same base technique. After that the art gets tailored to the individual. I have also found that too many people get bogged down in teh what ifs and they are often introducd too soon to the students.

I think that most with good teachers feel that way. But I would add that the tailoring comes much, much later deep into the black belt ranks after much is learned.

 

[The Kai]

Doc

If you think I am pestering you, please tell me!

But playing around last night with the two roundhouse kicks (kin and koshi geri). It seems to me that when throwing the kick high (above the waist), when you have the toes back (kin geri) there is a certain looseness in the front of the hip, whereas witht he toes back your hip feels locked back.

i know one part of the body is connected to the other (years of observation). Looking in the gray's anatomy the only mucle that seems to travel from the hip to the ankle is the hamstring -but it runs in the back of the thigh.

Is there something I am missing?
I am not trying to refute you I am hopingh to understand the process
Thanks
Todd

 

[kenpo tiger]

Part of the difficulty of martial arts practice is that it is difficult to be sure that you've found a teacher worth trusting--and difficult to then go on and trust them.

What I mean by this is that martial arts schools aren't democracies in the sense that people sometimes think, which is that everybody's opinion is equally good. No, it isn't: everybody's opinion is to be equally valued as their opinion, which is another thing entirely.

To pick up from an example already given: if somebody thinks that "evolution isn't scientific," or that, "science doesn't prove that the earth goes around the sun," or that, "there's solid proof that we never landed on the moon," well, they're certainly entitled to those opinions. The problem is that they hadda go and drag science into it. Once you do that, well, opinions don't count any more. You're even entitled to claim that science is the wrong way to see reality--but the "game," of science has certain rules, and one of those rules is, you don't get to overlook facts you find embarassing.

This--sorry in advance--doesn't have anything to do with change, or keeping one's mind open. It has to do with understanding that there really are such things as people who know more than you do about certain subjects, and when you meet one, you'd best shut down your opinions if you want to learn the subject. Of course if you don't or the "teacher's," an idiot, that's another story. But once you're pretty sure that the martial arts teacher knows what they're doing--well, you need to shaddap and try to learn, because otherwise, why are you even a student?

In other words, don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. Don't collapse into blind obedience and repetition--but recognize that there are people who know more about what you're trying to learn than you do.

One other point is that good martial arts training involves dredging up a lotta crap from one's--well, let's just call it the unconscious. And some of that crap doesn't want to be dredged, some of it involves refusing to learn, and some of it gets blocked by parts of the mind that do not want to change. In other words, failing to open your heart and your mind, and failing to think about those voices that, "have a better way," than somebody with forty years or so in the art, is not so good.

Some of this is why Stanley Fish, the literary scholar and critic, recently wrote that beginning students should be told to leave their opinions at home. They should be trying to learn something better.

I realize that I make some of you guys cranky, perhaps with good reason. Again, apologies, if those help. But please try to understand that I am about the last person to argue for blindly following whatever you're shown.

By the way, I was taught to roundhouse with the instep first, partly to protect the delicate little tootsies. But I was also taught to, "chamber," the knee at first....and then, things developed. Go figure.

OMG - We agree on something!

Oh yeah. Good post.

 

[Doc]

Doc

If you think I am pestering you, please tell me!

But playing around last night with the two roundhouse kicks (kin and koshi geri). It seems to me that when throwing the kick high (above the waist), when you have the toes back (kin geri) there is a certain looseness in the front of the hip, whereas witht he toes back your hip feels locked back.

Correct

i know one part of the body is connected to the other (years of observation). Looking in the gray's anatomy the only mucle that seems to travel from the hip to the ankle is the hamstring -but it runs in the back of the thigh.
Is there something I am missing?

A ton.

The science of human movement, especially in martial interaction is extremely specialized and encompasses a myriad of physical sciences all connected through the constantly fluctuating conduint of the human body. It is so specialized it cannot be learned through traditional or formal education methods. However formal education can enhance the process after the fact.

Human dynamics deal with a complex living machine with hundreds of parts and connecting mechanisms and sensors that is/are in a constant state of flux and adjustment from one jiffysecound to the next. Also the body is not a solid so Newtonian Physical Laws applied to solid objects do not necessarily translate to human dynamics. This knowledge is learned and passed from one to another.

Take note that in professional athletics, most great coaches have no physics or Kinesiology degrees yet have the ability to teach the dynamics of human physics at the highest level there is through information accumulated over years of interaction with other teachers and coaches. The ones that excel develop the most effective methodologies and understanding to their particular specialty. The martial application is the most complex.

Consider that the human body evolved under the weight of gravity or a constant unyielding resistance. Therefore the human skeleton and all of its connecting tissue and its structural integrity are inter-dependent on this resisting factor to achieve maximum efficiency and rigidity.

But the human body as a machine has a unique "living" capability beyond the mechanical machine. A human body has the ability to function "inefficiently" and does so as a normal part of its everyday function. This is what allows humans to exhibit fluid movement and allows the machine to perform things "incorrectly" as well as correctly. But the human body is only supposed to momentarily slip into its inefficient mode for the sake of certain movement, and return immediately to a strong and efficient mode to prevent injury to the machine.

Repetitive inefficient movement through improper training will produce significant injury or "breakdowns" to the machine either immediately or over time. This is why, absent blunt force trauma and externally induced hyperextension, the body can function for many years without "wearing out."

Unfortunately modern martial arts have been marketed around blunt force trauma (power) and expeditious (speed) physical movement for "quick" acquisition of some functional skills in violation of human anatomy principles creating ignorant "Counter Anatomy Applications." Most teach aesthetically drawing on "how" they think something should look, instead of "how" something should be properly executed relative to human anatomy. In their defense, they usually are only just doing what they think they were taught.

The human body mandates how all movements are executed for long-term success and long-term mechanical efficiency. Over the years I've seen so many people in and out of kenpo tear their bodies apart executing improper movements. Double hip replacement surgery, shoulder surgeries, knee and back injuries are rampant, all through improper dynamic movement that destroys rather than enhances the human machine.

This is also why when things are learned improperly, it doesn't take long for you to "lose" the ability to perform through inactivity or age. Proper anatomical movement sufficiently learned lasts a lifetime, even with extended inactivity. It is also why some "old men" seem to demonstrate significant speed and power with a minimum of movement beyond the younger more muscle-bound student.

Apparently you feel only muscles are involved in this process. I will reiterate. It is the entire body and all of its many parts. A single small part once moved can destroy the integrity of the machine. Even looking in the wrong direction can cause anatomical problems.

Ed Parker always said, “that once you go down that path of explaining the why of every little thing, you’ll never get to the important part. How.” When you don’t feel well or your car doesn’t run properly, you go to a doctor or mechanic you trust. Now he could tell you in highly technical terms what’s wrong, but you still wouldn’t know. So he explains it in simplistic layperson terms to give you an idea. But ultimately you must trust his judgment and follow his advice. Rmrobertson’s post on the fine line of trust and keeping an open mind says it all.

You are not my student, however I take the information I disseminate very seriously and take responsibility for it. We are all students on some level and if you were my student I would simply say, “trust me.” If not find another mechanic, and stop pestering me.

 

[Doc]

I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct? That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct? If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes. Now, if someone was wearing steel toed boots, that would be different.

I guess you still don't get it.

As for results...I want the best results possible. For example, I can stab someone with a pencil and get results, but I can stab someone with a knife and still get results, but better ones. My example of the results that I wish to achieve I feel can be attained greater by using the shin. I would think that you'd get much greater results with a Thai style kick over the ball of the foot.
As for punching....well, there is always the chance that you can break your hand. A heel palm or elbow strike can be just as good or better than a punch.

I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

I guess you still don't get it.

I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.

There is a term for this condition, it's called KENPOPHOBIA, and those that have it are KENPOPHOBES and KENPOPHOBIC (see also CUPCAKE) LOL. MJS doesn't fit into that category, though he used to LOL.

DarK LorD

 

[MJS]

I guess you still don't get it.

I'm afraid your position is an indicator of how much you simply don't know. You sir are like many. You don't want information only validation for what you believe. Knowledge does not seem to be a part of the equation. Information or validation? I'm afraid I can't give you either.

Well sir, I'm sorry that I'm not a student of the almighty SL4, a student of the all knowing, all mighty Doc, but you know, I think that you sir, don't see the fact that you are very arrogant! There certainly are a ton of other people out there that can take the time to explain something, without having the cocky attitude. Speaking of explaining things, Clyde took the time to speak with me on this very subject, and I thank him for that.

Regardless of what you seem to think, seeing that you know soooo much, I train and have trained with some damn good instructors. Again, I think that you need to come down off your high horse.

There are many kenpo instructors out there. You sir are not the only one that can provide information.

Mike

 

[MJS]

There is a term for this condition, it's called KENPOPHOBIA, and those that have it are KENPOPHOBES and KENPOPHOBIC (see also CUPCAKE) LOL. MJS doesn't fit into that category, though he used to LOL.

DarK LorD

I think that the Dark One has finally shown the young one the light! :asian:

Mike

 

[Doc]

Well sir, I'm sorry that I'm not a student of the almighty SL4, a student of the all knowing, all mighty Doc, but you know, I think that you sir, don't see the fact that you are very arrogant! There certainly are a ton of other people out there that can take the time to explain something, without having the cocky attitude. Speaking of explaining things, Clyde took the time to speak with me on this very subject, and I thank him for that.

Regardless of what you seem to think, seeing that you know soooo much, I train and have trained with some damn good instructors. Again, I think that you need to come down off your high horse.

There are many kenpo instructors out there. You sir are not the only one that can provide information.

Mike

Well sir I can see how someone as old and experienced as I, could seem arrogant to you. Especially considering I was a black belt for over a decade the day you were born. My children used to say I was "mean" sometimes., but they have grown and perhaps one day you will to.

There are many whom I have never met who I think might disgree with you strongly. I'm sorry but you sir were not looking for information for validation. You wanted to validate what you believe. With that I can't help you. Good luck.

Answers: $5
Correct Answers: $500
Dumb Looks: Free

 

[MJS]

Well sir I can see how someone as old and experienced as I, could seem arrogant to you. Especially considering I was a black belt for over a decade the day you were born. My children used to say I was "mean" sometimes., but they have grown and perhaps one day you will to.

Well sir, there are alot of people more exp. than me. In fact, I talk to one of those very people on a regular basis. You seem to have this unique way about yourself that you belittle anyone who has a different idea than you do. As I said before, those people do exist.

There are many whom I have never met who I think might disgree with you strongly. I'm sorry but you sir were not looking for information for validation. You wanted to validate what you believe. With that I can't help you. Good luck.

And I think that some would disagree with you as well. I might be wrong here, and I'm sure that you'll correct me if I am, but as for the kicking. I realize that certain strikes/kicks will get certain results. The roundhouse ball kick, is more of a precision strike. I'd still like to hear why you think that the Thai style kick is not good. Granted, you most likely will not pinpoint the same spot as you would with the ball, but its still a very effective kick.

You know Doc, I don't have the degrees that you do, and maybe I dont' understand the body as in-depth as you, but you should try to refrain from being so rude and from putting down people, their ideas, and their training because its something that you don't agree with. Last time I checked, we were not clones of each other. That being said, we as Martial Artists are going to have different views on things. Again, just because I dont' have the same outlook as you, does NOT make me any less of a Martial Artist.

Answers: $5
Correct Answers: $500
Dumb Looks: Free

Do all of those come with a rude reply as well??

In addition, I no longer wish to continue this discussion on the main thread. If you want to continue it, please do so by sending me a PM. By the way, I tried sending one to you, but your in box was filled.

Mike

 

[Doc]

Well sir, there are alot of people more exp. than me. In fact, I talk to one of those very people on a regular basis. You seem to have this unique way about yourself that you belittle anyone who has a different idea than you do. As I said before, those people do exist.

As I said before, I think there are many that would disagree with you. However if you feel "belittled" everytime someone who is more educated, older, or more experienced than you simply disagrees with you, you will have a difficult timing growing.

And I think that some would disagree with you as well. I might be wrong here, and I'm sure that you'll correct me if I am, but as for the kicking. I realize that certain strikes/kicks will get certain results. The roundhouse ball kick, is more of a precision strike. I'd still like to hear why you think that the Thai style kick is not good. Granted, you most likely will not pinpoint the same spot as you would with the ball, but its still a very effective kick.

Disagreement is not the issue here. However I think you reveal yourself based on the fact I NEVER said the kick was ineffective. In your extreme defensive posture you perceived and received what I said incorrectly. I DID say it was anatomically incorrect and could cause you long term injury, and explained why.

You know Doc, I don't have the degrees that you do, and maybe I dont' understand the body as in-depth as you, but you should try to refrain from being so rude and from putting down people, their ideas, and their training because its something that you don't agree with. Last time I checked, we were not clones of each other. That being said, we as Martial Artists are going to have different views on things. Again, just because I dont' have the same outlook as you, does NOT make me any less of a Martial Artist.

Once again I think your own insecurities are the issue here not disagreement. I don't see anywhere in this thread that anyone suggested you were less of a martial artist, nor did anyone else seem to think I was being "rude" for expressing my opinion much as you yourself did.

Do all of those come with a rude reply as well??

I'm afraid you missed the point of that slightly humorous comment as well.

In addition, I no longer wish to continue this discussion on the main thread. If you want to continue it, please do so by sending me a PM. By the way, I tried sending one to you, but your in box was filled.
Mike

Well sir, I'm not trying to "convince" you or anyone else, nor am I recruiting for my point of view. I attempt to educate from my perspective and provide another view for those who are interested in discussion. That is what this very special forum is for, and it would be dull if everyone just agreed with everything posted. Those who are not interested in what I have to say ignor me as you should. I now will refrain from posting replies to your posts as I'm sure you will mine. In this manner I can avoid being perceived as "rude" or "belittling" by you. Now that the issue is resolved and we understand each other (right or wrong), I consider the matter in its entirety closed. I wish you success in your quest for knowledge.

 

[Doc]

I dunno, Doc. I'm pretty keen on kicking with the distal 1/3 of my shin, too.

Keen? Otisburg?

Ball-o-the-foot roundhouse certainly provides a smaller point of contact (that whole arrow-tip vs. boxing glove thing, re- PSI), but there is just something satisfying about crashing into either the ilio-tibial band, adductor hiatus with all it's nerves, veins and arteries, or the fibular head at the inferior joint line at the lateral aspect of the knee with the thickness of the tibia near the ankle joint. Feels like taking a ball bat to the joint, rather than the softness of the toe-in ball of the foot position.

Yes, once your leg is conditioned to kicking this way I can imagine it "feels" satisfying.

Given that all rules have exceptions, one I always suspected held water was that, the more joints/parts there are between the striking weapon and the torso, the weaker the striking weapon (i.e., finger spear, vs. palm heel, vs. inward elbow...further out from the torso, and the more joints, the less stable the natural weapon).

I’m afraid that rule won’t hold water when you move properly aligned with the “Statue Effect.”

Ball-in roundhouse adds the ankle, talocalcaneonavicular joint complex (TCN) in an open-packed position, and multiple tarsals to the distance between the weapon and the body, when compared to the distal shin.

Yes but the position of the foot supports the tarsals and in effect remove the articulation of the joint in execution.

Additionally, the whipping action one can create with the coordinated use of hip flexors & thigh extensors (at least) feels like it's sending a greater force communication than the ball-in roundhouse.

Typical competition sport emphasis on “power” and blunt force trauma over the precision of precise application breaking down the body with specific intent over general intent.

In contrast, the ball roundhouse feels like it depletes the force by the knee moving into extension, away from the delivery point of the foot.

That would be an incorrect execution and indeed would cause problems anatomically.

I'm curious about the components you find unsatisfactory about the "Thai" roundhouse, and why.

I thought I answered that. It’s designed to operate on the lowest common denominator of physical interaction found in sporting and competition applications. Blunt force trauma is not the answer to all problems in real life. Also its use will ultimately result in significant injury to the hip flexor predicated on foot position and height of kick.

I never said it couldn’t be done. “You can steer a car with your feet, but that don’t mean it’s a good idea.” And please don’t make me try to remember half of the names of the different muscle groups I’ve long since forgotten. I never had to use them in a practice like you do everyday. You know that’s no fair, I almost went crazy learning that stuff the first time around, and I ain’t gonna drag those dam books out and look them up any more because I don't have to. In fact, I think that’s your job. Yeah, that’s the ticket. Wait til I get my hands on you. It's gonna hurt, and then you can name all the painful spots.

 

[Brother John]

I believe the idea we were talking about was kicking with the ball of the foot, correct? That being said, depending on what type of shoe is being worn, that will determine if the toes can be curled back or not, correct? If a woman has on high heels, chances are she will not be able to curl the toes back, therefore, she'll be kicking with the point of the shoe, possibly injuring her toes
Mike

Hey Mike
I think I know where you are coming from, but here's my .02:

I don't think that a woman wearing 'high heels' should be kicking much of anything...curled toes or no...
except maybe kicking off those shoes the moment she senses any danger.
Your Brother
John