Teaching kids increases the size of your wallet but does not improve your teaching

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by kenposikh
That kids can sometimes see things more clearly because their brains are not cluttered up with adult stuff. What was his reply by the way

I agree totally because I sometimes

"I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then..." (Bob Seger)

and I'm curious too as to the kid's reply.

stickarts says

When parents fill out the registration form in our school, their goals for their children are almost always for them to gain confidence and discipline. seldom, if ever, do we see self defense marked down for the young kids as being a reason why they are there. also, parents appreciate the value of having their kids learn to interact with other children, especially kids that have no siblings to play with. Parents on this forum know what i mean and understand the value of this! We get overwhelming positive feedback from parents about how the classes help their children.

I'm not an MA instructor but I would be sad (on the inside) if all the registrations of kids by their parents failed to list "self-defense" as the reasons why they're enrolling their child in that particular school. It's almost as if they're reluctant to admit their fear of their child getting hurt/attacked/worse out in the real world, away from the safety/comforts of home. School bullies still exist, predators exist... better to have a child prepared to face them than to come home crying or not come home at all.
MA does offer children many many benefits it's true but it teaches them how to defend themselves in an increasingly violent world.
As for padding the instructors wallet, there's nothing wrong at all because the instructor has to eat and feed their family too. It's a service that they choose to provide and a desire to pass on their knowledge and the benefits they've gained individually from their respective arts.
Benefit the instructor? I think yes. While I am not a MA instuctor I do instruct kids from time to time in other things. And I learn right along with them but of course the things that I learn are different than what I teach.
It's fun to watch the kids practice what they've been taught. Once in a while I'll go visit a friend's MA school to watch either them or their kids practice their drills/techniques or test for a new rank. It's enjoyable to watch and I'm sure it's enjoyable for the instructor who puts in the time and patience with these kids to see them perform awesome.
Kids will make mistakes and over time as the instuctor helps correct them he/she learns how to become a better teacher for the next student.

now that I'm .02 poorer I'll shut up
:asian:

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
Kid looks at me like I'm mentally retarded, and says--with virtually no consideration--"Well, because..." and gives a far better, more-direct answer than I'd come up with in the past two years.

Beyond learning the clear fact that I'm an idiot, what can we learn from this?

I guess I would have to know what the answer was before I can talk about it. "Well, because..." isn't enough for me.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by JD_Nelson
I think if one cannot understand a basic principle as an adult, then he or she is making the principle to hard.

Even if the children are picking up just the movements, then at a more developed age wouldn't the principles seem to come to them maybe a tad easier. When I am learning a new technique, i have many many thoughts and ideas going through my head while I am just trying to learn the ideal.

If you can have a child understand a principle, then hopefully an adult can pick up on the same idea.


KISS principle

Salute

JD

Well said!

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by kenposikh
I recently received a post that teaching children generally only increases the size of your wallet but does not improve you as a teacher. How many people agree or disagree with this statement and can you provide examples.

Any educator can tell you there are fundemental differences between the way adults learn and the way children learn. This requires different approaches to each audience when teaching them. In short teaching children can make you a better "Teacher", but will it make you a better MAist, my vote is No. You as an adult process information differently than kids do, your presentation to them won't necessarily improve your own understanding of the material.

Teaching kenpo is not my primary method of income, so I can afford to be choosey about whom I accept as a student, children under 10 are not among them.

 

[Kenpomachine]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger
Any educator can tell you there are fundemental differences between the way adults learn and the way children learn. This requires different approaches to each audience when teaching them. In short teaching children can make you a better "Teacher", but will it make you a better MAist, my vote is No.

Kids ask more questions than adults do, and they're often more philosophical than the adults as well, at least in my experience. They'll always ask why so, and continue until they get an answer that is logical to them. Adults will take things for granted most of the time. Thus the kids would help your MA by forcing you to have very clear concepts and principles.

If anyone here think that advancing as a martial artist relies only in physical training, well, not for me.

So my answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side.

 

[kenposikh]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine

If anyone here think that advancing as a martial artist relies only in physical training, well, not for me.

So my answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side.

I wholeheartedly agree

 

[rmcrobertson]

I see I haven't made my point clearly.

Here it is: while lots of kids might as well be in play group as on the mat, folks go off about teaching kids because a) it's easier than exploring their own limitations as martial artists; b) it's easier than getting into the real issues of money and the martial arts.

My experience has been that teaching kids--while I don't always like it very much--teaches a LOT having to do with patience, ingenuity, control, focus, and several other things that may be of use in my training.

I get exasperated with yuppie larvae. Sure. At times, teaching kids maakes me crazy. Sure. However, I also get exasperated with "martial artists," who don't believe in teaching kids because they can't really learn. And somehow, this seems to hang together with complaints about the pointlessness of teaching--or working out with--a whole bunch of other grown-up people who can't really learn, or somehow aren't good enough, or are too small, or..{insert favorite excuse here}.

To me, kids expose our weaknesses. One of which--and sorry, but I see it in the responses--is the notion that martial arts are only about who can hit the hardest.

 

[jeffkyle]

Originally posted by rmcrobertson
To me, kids expose our weaknesses. One of which--and sorry, but I see it in the responses--is the notion that martial arts are only about who can hit the hardest.

What about who is the fastest, or who can hit the most times, or who outranks who? :shrug:

You still never answered the question(s) about what that kid said!?!?!?!?

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by MisterMike

Therefor, teaching the kids cannot ADD anything that wouldn't already be learned about the art by teaching adults. This was my only point. I think we're comparing apples and oranges here.

Ummm. If you are to teach kids something that would be useful to them if in the event they actually have to use it, then you want to be able to see whether the technique works for them. Some types of techniques work well on adults because of height differences between the attacker and attackee (is that even a word?)

Kids are smaller, thus we have to think seriously about how to make things work for them with their size.

Watch their expressions, their execution of motion, and you can see whether its effective. Don't just teach them something that just has to be taught but is ineffective.

My sons' instructor will demonstrate to them the technique moves. If it is something that is ineffective (at that point because of their size), but is part of the required curriculum, he will explain that it is something they need to know, but will show them a variation that will work for them effectively. As an instructor, he is mindful of both the curriculum and of practical self-defense application.

- Ceicei

 

[MA-Caver]

Originally posted by Kenpomachine
So my answer in regards to what kids can do for your betterment as a MA is that they can help you a lot in the intellectual part, but no so in the physical side. [/B]

I'd disagree with this to an extent because I wrestle with an 10 and 8 yr old for fun. At the same time using ground-fighting/grappling techniques. The discipline that I learn by doing this is invaluable. The amount of pressure that I need to use to restrain the 10 yr old is different from the 8 yr old and as with an adult.
I've discovered an awareness to my own control of my physical muscles as to how much pressure to apply so it won't hurt them, just have the desired affect of restraint. It's all in great fun and I learn how to make sure that my body isn't over-doing or even under doing (?) what I need to do.
Thus control of the physical is what I can get out of working/playing/teaching children.

rmcrobertson said:

<snip>My experience has been that teaching kids--while I don't always like it very much...

With all due respect it seems to me that you shouldn't be teaching kids at all then. Kids will pick up on the fact that who they're with does or does not like what they're doing. Kids live from the heart and thus feel things on a more intuitive level than we adults.
If there are other instructors at your school that like working with kids then allow them and stick to teaching adults. :asian: :asian:

 

[Dan G]

I am not a martial arts instructor, just a student. In the past I have had experience of teaching English to ages ranging from 6 to 60+. IMHO teaching ages 6 - 12 was one of the most useful experiences I could have had, both as a teacher and a person. I do believe that if one is capable of motivating and teaching children well, then it can only add to one's ability to teach older people. I don't advocate using the same approach neccessarily, I do believe the understanding of people and communication gained through teaching children can only be a benefit when teaching adults. I also found it really enjoyable, as younger children in particular are very open to taking on new activities and far less self conscious and afraid of failure, and were a joy to teach in comparison to both sulky Junior High students, and adult classes where a fear of looking foolish was also a real obstacle (to both students and myself). I also found that 9 year olds could be pretty sharp from time to time...

Others on the thread have been of the opinion that training children cannot improve a teacher as a martial artist. I am not qualified to comment on this, but I would like to broaden the debate by asking the (rhetorical) question "why would anyone choose to teach? For their benefit as a martial artist, or for the benefit of their martial art?".


Personally, having trained briefly in martial arts as a child before returning as a teen, and later again as an adult, I feel that my first instructor started me on a path that has consistently been fulfilling, and I have utter respect for those instructors that are out there sharing their knowledge, offering children the opportunity to discover the benefits of pursuing a martial art, and helping keep their respective arts alive and kicking...

Respectfully,

Dan

 

[rmcrobertson]

I want to agree very strongly with the last poster, particularly in terms of the openness kids bring to the arts.

I want to suggest that, "MA Caver," is extraordinarily fortunate to have only ever taught people he likes, to have always had perfect lessons with them, to have never run into discouraging students and unhappy lessons, to have never have encountered students whose problems (which they bring onto the mat with them) are deep-seated in their lives and their families and their neighborhoods, to have always been a perfect teacher, to have never failed with a student or a class.

Mazeltov. Me, I've been teaching since--well, for longer than many posters have been alive--and there've been lots of mistakes and discouragements, as well as students well beyond whatever help I have to offer. Those mistakes and failings still bother me.

Of course, there are also the five kids I'm presently teaching that have been my students for...let's see...hm. Quite a while....as well as the others who...oh, never mind. Not stories I care to tell, here.

I quite agree that kids are extraordinarily discerning. I would suggest that any teacher who thinks that all students are happy all the time, that all lessons run beautifully, that all learnings are successful, that all good teachers are happy and good all the time--needs to take a good long look at outside reality and what goes on in their own heart.

 

[OC Kid]

Teaching kids has helped be a better teach and communicator. If I get a 10 year old to understand a difficult technique, in most cases a adult will be easy.

 

[MA-Caver]

I want to suggest that, "MA Caver," is extraordinarily fortunate to have only ever taught people he likes, to have always had perfect lessons with them, to have never run into discouraging students and unhappy lessons, to have never have encountered students whose problems (which they bring onto the mat with them) are deep-seated in their lives and their families and their neighborhoods, to have always been a perfect teacher, to have never failed with a student or a class.

Robert... umm, err, ahh... :idunno: I'm at a loss at where I might have said, implied, suggested that I have taught ANY Martial Art to anyone period? I have practiced, even tutored and sparred but officially teach ... umm... not to this guys' knowledge.
Caving? ... oh my yes! And I have indeed have had "problem-students" ...quite simply they straighten up or don't ever get with me again... this is due to the nature of the dangers involved with caving.
I'll quote myself from post #41 in this thread... and bold/underline the disclaimer and clairification that I made...

I'm not an MA instructor but I would be sad (on the inside) if all the registrations of kids by their parents failed to list "self-defense" as the reasons why they're enrolling their child in that particular school. It's almost as if they're reluctant to admit their fear of their child getting hurt/attacked/worse out in the real world, away from the safety/comforts of home. School bullies still exist, predators exist... better to have a child prepared to face them than to come home crying or not come home at all.
MA does offer children many many benefits it's true but it teaches them how to defend themselves in an increasingly violent world.
As for padding the instructors wallet, there's nothing wrong at all because the instructor has to eat and feed their family too. It's a service that they choose to provide and a desire to pass on their knowledge and the benefits they've gained individually from their respective arts.
Benefit the instructor? I think yes. While I am not a MA instuctor I do instruct kids from time to time in other things. And I learn right along with them but of course the things that I learn are different than what I teach.

Robert, I respect you but I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't put words into my mouth. While I would probably love to be experienced enough in MA to qualify to teach I am not and know enough to defend myself should that need arise. But if I ever DO become qualified to teach... you can bet your old baby booties that I'd be more than HAPPY to teach kids... even at NO cost to myself.
Children need the benefit of everyone's experience be it MA, caving, driving, whatever! To deny them is to deny ourselves the chance to make a difference (however small) in someone's life.
:asian:

 

[rmcrobertson]

Hm. I've been teaching since 1981, teaching martial arts for the last eight years or so, been the teacher of at least three kids for the last six to eight years straight, you've never taught, but you feel perfectly comfortable in writing, "With all due respect it seems to me that you shouldn't be teaching kids at all then. Kids will pick up on the fact that who they're with does or does not like what they're doing. Kids live from the heart and thus feel things on a more intuitive level than we adults. If there are other instructors at your school that like working with kids then allow them and stick to teaching adults...."

It would be my suggestion that you wait until you are teaching regularly, and teaching kids regularly, and teaching in a public fashion, before you continue explaining how your grandma should suck de eggs. Particularly if you presently have the luxury of dealing with "problem students," by saimply saying, "And I have indeed have had "problem-students" ...quite simply they straighten up or don't ever get with me again."

Oh, incidentally, if you get a copy of Larry Tatum's excellent book, "Confidence: A Child's First Weapon," you will have a chance to see three of my students.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Tshadowchaser
aka Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-

 

[shesulsa]

If one looks carefully at the post quoted from MACaver, one may notice that 1) he stated his opinion fairly and prefaced it with the words, "With all due respect..." and 2) he indicates very clearly that he does not instruct children in martial arts, rather his own specialty, caving.

Back to the topic:

Teaching children requires many things, among them patience, curiosity, the ability to view things in a child-like manner, and understanding. From assisting the instructors of children for the past handful of years, I think if you can teach a room full of kids, you can teach just about anybody. In breaking things down to baby steps, I have learned things about the basics of my martial art I didn't think I needed to know.

Cheers!

Georgia

 

[BallistikMike]

Teaching is the greatest learning you will ever do.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Ditto! If you can work a class full of kids you can work a class of adults very easily. Plus you have a wider array of techniques, visualizations, and analogys that you can use to teach the adults as well...and since not everyone learns the exact same way, this can make you a more proficient teacher for them and this can also increase their learning curve.

Could not have said it better myself

 

[Kenpodoc]

First I've learned a lot both teaching children and watching my children be taught.

Second, thank god someone is coming in to fill my instructors wallet. He's been incredibly generous with his time and a full time job would seriously limit his availability to the rest of us.

Jeff