I was pretty darn sure that we were, just, initially it didn't sound like it!DWeidman said:
Tapping Out
- Thread starter rutherford
- Start date
I agree with Big Shadow on this. You need to slow it down a little when the lock/submission is being applied, it benefits both uke (for safety) and tori (for practice). This allows the uke time to feel if everything feels right. The lock may feel tight, but the uke should be able to tell you if everything else is right to make sure that you are being most efficient. Additionally the uke would be able to feel to see if there is any "play' or an exit that would force you to use a transition. Slowing it down in practice just assures that you are doing the technique properly, for example if applying a rear naked choke, sure you'll get a tap eventually, but what is causing the tap? Are you really subduing blood flow to the head, or are you on the uke's trachea? Another example, for a takedown, armbar dragout...are you properly using push/pull leverage? or muscling the guy down?
Am I making any sense at all? Doesn't seem like it to me
Am I making any sense at all? Doesn't seem like it to me
swiftpete
Blue Belt
The guy sounds like a real tool. If he had something to say he shouldn't say it while he's got you in a lock, that's unacceptable as far as I'm concerned and i wouldn't have been happy.
I talk to people while they are in locks but only to ask if its on well and how it could be improved, that sort of thing, helping each other out. Putting someone in a lock and then lecturing them...surprised you didn't lose your cool a bit with him.
I talk to people while they are in locks but only to ask if its on well and how it could be improved, that sort of thing, helping each other out. Putting someone in a lock and then lecturing them...surprised you didn't lose your cool a bit with him.
OP
rutherford
Master Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #24
People and relationships are always more complex than it's capable of describing in a message board post.
This is the same guy who has taught me a lot of stuff, and done a lot of stuff for me. Once, I was complaining to a friend about a bad headache I was dealing with and he came over, found where the knot was in my shoulders causing the headache, and worked it out for me. There has been far more to the good.
I'm unlikely to lose my cool this far after the fact, but I still need to have a talk with him.
This is the same guy who has taught me a lot of stuff, and done a lot of stuff for me. Once, I was complaining to a friend about a bad headache I was dealing with and he came over, found where the knot was in my shoulders causing the headache, and worked it out for me. There has been far more to the good.
I'm unlikely to lose my cool this far after the fact, but I still need to have a talk with him.
I think in short, it boils down to learning control.sandan said:I agree with Big Shadow on this. You need to slow it down a little when the lock/submission is being applied, it benefits both uke (for safety) and tori (for practice). This allows the uke time to feel if everything feels right. The lock may feel tight, but the uke should be able to tell you if everything else is right to make sure that you are being most efficient. Additionally the uke would be able to feel to see if there is any "play' or an exit that would force you to use a transition. Slowing it down in practice just assures that you are doing the technique properly, for example if applying a rear naked choke, sure you'll get a tap eventually, but what is causing the tap? Are you really subduing blood flow to the head, or are you on the uke's trachea? Another example, for a takedown, armbar dragout...are you properly using push/pull leverage? or muscling the guy down?
Am I making any sense at all? Doesn't seem like it to me
bdparsons
Black Belt
Bigshadow said:
...and using it.
Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute
Shizen Shigoku
Purple Belt
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2004
- Messages
- 344
- Reaction score
- 25
I only skimmed through this thread, so I don't know if these aspects have been covered, but here is my POV on it:
When it comes to signalling submission or onset of pain, there is a tori-uke relationship. There is respect and safety involved of course, but there are other martial principles that can be practiced.
I want to talk about two using examples from my aikido days, and then mention another from a Bujinkan perspective.
One is sensitivity. When I took aikido, we were taught of course to not harm the other person and only use the minimal effective amount of pain-compliance if needed in a technique. Most techniques involve locks for control and imobilization but not for pain or injury. The Tori-Uke relationship worked like this:
Uke learns to tap at the appropriate time, but also to not react in any way to show discomfort or pain - just tap. The sensitivity comes in for Tori (Nage) to be able to tell the exact moment that uke is about to tap.
When I would demo with the instructor or other high-ranks, there would be very little tapping, locks and controlling motions would change and flow so smoothly that tapping is either never an option, not needed, or just on the verge.
Control is another important issue. When someone taps, don't just let go and walk away - remember zanshin - maintain the lock or whatever, but ease up to avoid pain or injury.
An example: a standing arm lock to a takedown and pin. The lock is put on smoothly, Uke taps to signal that it is working. This acts as a signal to flow into the takedown motion. Uke is face-down with arm torqued and extended away from their body. The pin is applied and Uke taps to signal submission. A little pressure is taken off, but the lock/pin is maintained, and Nage moves in a position to maintain control up to the point of disengaging - usually Uke's arm is brought behind their back and held as Nage stands up, looks around for more danger, tries to verbally diffuse, run away, etc.
With advanced practicioners that have good sensitivity, all of the above would involve no tapping. Uke is not giving any other indication, but Nage knows that tapping is imminent and continues to flow to the next step.
The other issue is one of realism. In a real fight, if someone has us in a lock or pin, tapping is not going to make them ease up or let go the technique. In fact, it may encourage them to "keep going."
Another thing I've thought of -and I don't know if this has ever happened, but humor me here - is what if a person through MA training is conditioned to always let go of a technique, or otherwise ease up the offense when they hear or feel a tap. In a real fight, they might just encounter someone with MA experience who has been conditioned to tap. Defender pins the opponent, applies a controlling lock, and the person taps out of habit. Defender is conditioned to release; opponent feels release, escapes and hurts the defender.
Again, probably not a likely scenario, but the lesson of course is to remain control.
The best BJK example I can think of is shidoshi Van Donk's Combat Ninjutsu video. Towards the end, it is getting very "rock and roll" and Mr. Van Donk is just thrashing people. During one exchange, he takes down his uke and applies an arm lock. Uke taps with the other hand, so what does RVD do? he takes the tapping hand and applies a lock to it as well! Uke tries tapping out with his foot (he is clearly in a lot of discomfort) - guess what happens to that foot?
When it comes to signalling submission or onset of pain, there is a tori-uke relationship. There is respect and safety involved of course, but there are other martial principles that can be practiced.
I want to talk about two using examples from my aikido days, and then mention another from a Bujinkan perspective.
One is sensitivity. When I took aikido, we were taught of course to not harm the other person and only use the minimal effective amount of pain-compliance if needed in a technique. Most techniques involve locks for control and imobilization but not for pain or injury. The Tori-Uke relationship worked like this:
Uke learns to tap at the appropriate time, but also to not react in any way to show discomfort or pain - just tap. The sensitivity comes in for Tori (Nage) to be able to tell the exact moment that uke is about to tap.
When I would demo with the instructor or other high-ranks, there would be very little tapping, locks and controlling motions would change and flow so smoothly that tapping is either never an option, not needed, or just on the verge.
Control is another important issue. When someone taps, don't just let go and walk away - remember zanshin - maintain the lock or whatever, but ease up to avoid pain or injury.
An example: a standing arm lock to a takedown and pin. The lock is put on smoothly, Uke taps to signal that it is working. This acts as a signal to flow into the takedown motion. Uke is face-down with arm torqued and extended away from their body. The pin is applied and Uke taps to signal submission. A little pressure is taken off, but the lock/pin is maintained, and Nage moves in a position to maintain control up to the point of disengaging - usually Uke's arm is brought behind their back and held as Nage stands up, looks around for more danger, tries to verbally diffuse, run away, etc.
With advanced practicioners that have good sensitivity, all of the above would involve no tapping. Uke is not giving any other indication, but Nage knows that tapping is imminent and continues to flow to the next step.
The other issue is one of realism. In a real fight, if someone has us in a lock or pin, tapping is not going to make them ease up or let go the technique. In fact, it may encourage them to "keep going."
Another thing I've thought of -and I don't know if this has ever happened, but humor me here - is what if a person through MA training is conditioned to always let go of a technique, or otherwise ease up the offense when they hear or feel a tap. In a real fight, they might just encounter someone with MA experience who has been conditioned to tap. Defender pins the opponent, applies a controlling lock, and the person taps out of habit. Defender is conditioned to release; opponent feels release, escapes and hurts the defender.
Again, probably not a likely scenario, but the lesson of course is to remain control.
The best BJK example I can think of is shidoshi Van Donk's Combat Ninjutsu video. Towards the end, it is getting very "rock and roll" and Mr. Van Donk is just thrashing people. During one exchange, he takes down his uke and applies an arm lock. Uke taps with the other hand, so what does RVD do? he takes the tapping hand and applies a lock to it as well! Uke tries tapping out with his foot (he is clearly in a lot of discomfort) - guess what happens to that foot?
Floating Egg
Blue Belt
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2004
- Messages
- 213
- Reaction score
- 11
That's an interesting experience. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to call the guy a tool, but there was definitely a miscommunication of sorts. I don't think it's the continued use of pain that concerns me most about your encounter, but the lecture that took place during it. It might be worthwhile to pull him aside privately and discuss the matter.
swiftpete
Blue Belt
Shizen Shigoku said:
I'd like to see that , it sounds pretty funny to be honest!
Shinkengata
Green Belt
Enjoy the shuriken. Ed makes very good ones.
