Tapping Out

[rutherford]

So, in all the previous training I've done tapping out is an absolute. When somebody taps out, you immediately and safely release all pressure. Because everybody's range of motion is different, you assume that when the person is tapping out they're telling you, "If you go further, I will be injured!" People who cranked even a little more after a tap would get a talking to at least, and would probably be ejected from class.

Is the understanding of the tap out different in Bujinkan and related training?

Some instructors, especially, seem to have the opinion that they know better than the uke and I've seen a few folks who will hold a lock and talk to their training partners and people watching, or "push boundries" and crank a little more or in a different direction.

So, I spent the weekend with a limited range of motion in my right arm and both of them still have a bit of pain from hyperextended elbos. Frankly, I'm roaring pissed about it, and I want to know if I've a legitimate complaint or if this is just another thing I need to adjust to.

Tap earlier?

 

[mj_lover]

you have every right to be po'ed I tap when I feel the tech begin to work, before it actually starts to really hurt. that way if the guy's a prick, you don't get hurt.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are a couple of different "styles" of tapping out.

1. Tap out for submission. If one is involved in a match with another and a submission is applied, your tapping out indicates that you give up and the match is over.

2. Tap out for pain. In some drills, a lock can be applied and a tap can indicate that you are in pain and the tori should relent a tad, but still attempt to maintain control.

Sometimes tapping can be continuous throughout a lock flow drill. The uki can continually resist and the tori can switch from lock to lock, but the uki can control the amount of pain he/she feels with their use of tapping.

I think its bad practice to ignore an uki's taps. Sure, there may be some learning purpose behind it, such as increasing pain tolerance, but that purpose should be expressly told to the uki before hand so that it does not cause the hard feelings you are feeling. I'm all for "toughening" people up, but I think it needs to be communicated.

I hope there are no lasting injuries to your arms. Take a break and heal.

upnorthkyosa

 

[rutherford]

Thanks for the comments, guys. Your understanding matches mine, and I don't think I have any lasting damage - unless it returns as I age.

After 4 days of rest, I have full mobility and your basic case of sore joints. I'd just rather not have lost that training time, been able to pick up my kids, that sort of thing.

There are a couple of different "styles" of tapping out.

1. Tap out for submission. If one is involved in a match with another and a submission is applied, your tapping out indicates that you give up and the match is over.

2. Tap out for pain. In some drills, a lock can be applied and a tap can indicate that you are in pain and the tori should relent a tad, but still attempt to maintain control.

1. Is what I would expect if I went up to the BJJ open mat night in Burlington.

2. Is more what I'm talking about, and I'm specifically asking about training suitable for the Traditional Ninjutsu forum.

Is tapping out a practice used in Japan? If Nagato Sensei is twisting you like a pretzel, is tapping appropriate?

 

[Bigshadow]

2. Tap out for pain. In some drills, a lock can be applied and a tap can indicate that you are in pain and the tori should relent a tad, but still attempt to maintain control.

#2 best describes my experience in the dojo. I think this helps give the student the feel of when they are at the brink, the point where in real life the uke may want to "renegotiate" the situation. This trains the student in finite movement. Most places I have trained this is the best description. I have had my share of hyper extended elbows, but they were not as bad as you described. If yours were that bad, I would "guess" that the Tori didn't have good control of their movement. Otherwise, they could have felt it before you had to tap. Tapping out is really rare with the people I train with, they are pretty good at putting you there without pushing over the limit. It comes with practice.

Train safe,
David

 

[ginshun]

I think that we pretty much tap as soon as we can feel that the technique is working, and we pretty much go with the idea that as soon as you tap, the tori should release the technique. I would say that in general (for me anyway) I tap early enough that the person could hold the technique or even go a little further without damage.

what you are describing sounds pretty exessive to me though.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Definately tap early do not wait until the damage begins! I try to always
leave some extra wiggle room in case someone goes to far! Having said
this though in a serious martial art injuries are always a possibility and
sometimes people zig when they should have zagged, if you know what I
mean! In your case it just sounds like your partner went to far! I would
definately let him/her know that in the future they need to be a little more
careful!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Tengu6]

I would like to add a few comments if I may.

I think "tapping early" is probably the wrong phrase you are looking for. If you tap early you are "assuming" the technique is working....this gives the attacker incorrect feedback as to when it is working.

IMO it is more important to choose your training partner carefully and dont allow a technique to be done on you if you dont have the ukemi skills to go with it. Use taijutsu to stay ahead of the lock.

You should understand how to put a lock on completely......but there is no need to do that in the Dojo as long as you understand that on the street it has to be applied hard and fast.

Also, dont train with jerks. A good instructor knows how to keep you safe (although accidents can happen).

Lastly, when tapping out, try to tap ON your training partner........it can be hard to decipher between taps on the mat and the body flopping on it.

Train Safe,
Markk Bush

 

[bdparsons]

One of the very first "rules" I stress when teaching joint manipulations, pressure points and chokes is HONOR THE TAP. I also discuss the two extremes-- the "wuss tap" when someone taps at the mildest thought of a technique working and the "I-can-take-it tap" when recicpient feels like seeing just how much they can endure. The former cheats the individual doing the techniques and the latter puts the recipient at risk for serious injury (or worse). If you want to play, understand the rules.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[Shogun]

Tapping out early seems to have no use, but whats worse is someone NOT releasing the hold after uke taps. or at the very least, loosening up. as a GJJ practitioner, I have seen some serious injuries due to people being overly aggressive. its rediculous. you shouldnt be doing the hold if your gonna crank on it well after the person has tapped.

 

[Don Roley]

I have problems with one of my elbows as well. So I understand where you are coming from.

In the dojos in Japan I train in, when you tap there seems to be an immediate stop in the pressure. Sometimes it is held at that level. But to go further would probably result in my teacher using you as an uke and having a little 'accident' during the demo. (Talk to some New Zealand comedians about the dangers of having the wrong attitude. )

But there are a lot of jerks in the Bujinkan and every martial art I have been in. I have noticed that a lot of visitors to Japan seem to take a particular joy in hurting their training partner. I guess it makes them feel like a real man. One guy here in Japan sometimes calls me before going to honbu. He has an injury that flares up from time to time and when it is bad he will only work out with me or someone he knows. I gather that he has found that telling people about his injury will not always stop people from targeting it for a little ego gratification.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Okay lets try this again! What I mean by tapping early is when the pain first starts mildly!(still a little wiggle room left) When the pain continues for a split second more it is that much closer to you having a major problem! If you continue the I-can-take-it model so to speak you are asking for a break if your partner is not knowledgeable or continues to think you not hurting to much! Clearly you are not doing a wuss tap if you start to feel some pain and then tap! Now, whenever you are rolling with intent to submit "stuff happens", there will always be a good chance that you do not tap fast enough and the break will occur! I concur wholeheartedly that you should tap on your partner if you can. Clearly that is the best course of action! If your hands are tied up tap with your legs! Also, do not train with jerks! If you don't like training with someone, then don't! Find a different partner! I have seen so many people get busted up at various schools when they tapped to late, or refused to tap! I would rather tap early or when I feel the first bit of pain than tap later when the damage is already done! Bottom line, keep your joints okay! Nothing worse than having a blown out elbow because you tapped to late or worked with someone who has little or no control!

Brian R. VanCise

 

[Shogun]

Also, do not train with jerks!

sometimes they are ninja about this and you dont know until you are tapping. lol

 

[Bigshadow]

Another thing.... SLOW IT DOWN! This will give everyone time to FEEL what is going on and respond. Plus you learn how to do it correctly much faster. If you can do it correct and slow, you can do it correct and fast, but not the other way around.

 

[rutherford]

Hai. Thank you, everybody, for your input.

So, this is what happened: Thursday evening we were working on some groundwork techniques. Tori was laying on his back and Uke attacked with your basic two handed choke. My partner was the senior member of our training group. He has 10 years of serious training in, and obviously moves at a completely different level than I do. However, I won't lie. I have about 3 years of very active groundwork experience between wrestling and the BJJ that's part of the PFS branch of JKD. It's where I move best (as compared to a clubbed baby seal).

With him, I definitely provide an initially higher level of resistance then I do with other training members. But, that was what I understood he wanted. He just about broke my nose with a shuto a few weeks ago. I was guarded up better on the next pass - and stayed guarded well for the rest of that training day. In my mind, it was the wake-up call I needed.

The first time we did the tech, I went at about 20% resistance (but slowly) and stuck with the movements as Uke was specified. If it wasn't part of the attack, I never would have performed a choke like that or kept my butt so high in the air, but it's the movement and timing we were training, so I went with it.

The second time we did the tech, when he put his feet on my hips I cocked them so he slipped off and I sunk a little lower. I didn't snuggle in as I would have gotten if really going for that choke, and I didn't try to pass the guard or anything like that. I wasn't gripping hard to actually perform the choke, but I always attack with intent and I kept my hands where they were supposed to be. No change in speed, still moving slowly.

He did the perfect thing and whacked me in the face. I said "Good" because it both showed me that I wasn't paying attention for strikes and it surprised me. The second time he hit me was just after I spoke, and as I reacted he rolled me into the double arm lock we were working. In my mind, it was perfect. I resisted and instead of trying to muscle it out, he broke my concentration, created an oppertunity, and moved when I reacted. Perfect.

He put the lock on well, and I tapped - probably already later than I should have. He sat up, and that really bent me, so I tapped again and made some ouchy noises. I expected he'd release at that point, and was just laying there waiting when I heard a voice say, "Now that I've got you here, I want to talk to you about a few things. You see that I can do the techs with resistance, but some of these other guys wouldn't be able to."

It took me a second to realize I was getting a lecture about speaking with your Tori before providing resistance. I work hard at being a good Uke, so I was surprised at getting this lecture at all, but I'll certainly allow that I could communicate better - especially with this guy. I do disagree about the skill level of the group on that day . . . but I didn't say that.

It wasn't until the next day when I woke up and couldn't straighten my right arm or touch my fingers to my shoulder that I got pissed and saw the irony of the situation. You don't like the level of resistance I provide - safely, and with your training in mind - so you're gonna injure me instead of just saying something as you said I should have done? We did two passes, and I didn't significantly bump up the resistence on the second pass or go any faster. Why not say something after the first? Or say something while we were working?

Hai. I learned several lessons with that experience. I'll communicate better, tap earlier, and be more careful around this guy.

And, I won't let this bother me anymore. My set of shuriken arrived from Budo Weapons yesterday. I've got better things on which to spend my energy.

 

[DWeidman]

...If you can do it correct and slow, you can do it correct and fast, but not the other way around.

Being able to do it correct and slow doesn't mean you can do it correct and fast. It simply means you *might* be able to do it correct and fast -- you won't know until you try.

If you can do it *correct* and fast - however, it is almost certain you can do it correct and slow. Most fast stuff is "fast and sloppy" - in which doing it "slow and correct" is a much better option.



-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

 

[DWeidman]

...He put the lock on well, and I tapped - probably already later than I should have. He sat up, and that really bent me, so I tapped again and made some ouchy noises. I expected he'd release at that point, and was just laying there waiting when I heard a voice say, "Now that I've got you here, I want to talk to you about a few things...

Hmmm... me? I would have gone ballistic.

As soon as I feel someone move past the *safety* boundaries - I simply ask them if they want to *fight* instead of *train*. If he wants to remove the safety - then I want to remove my inhibitions. Oh - and I am VERY VERY loud when it happens normally - because I want everyone in the room to know what is going on.

Honestly - this is a time when you should speak to the instructor. I have ***ZERO*** tolerance for this kind of thing. In training - we **allow** our training partners to nearly kill us because we *trust* them not to. This is a violation of that trust. I don't suffer reckless people well...

Anyway - just my thoughts.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

 

[rutherford]

To be honest, I was too damn surprised to even think about it, and I haven't had a chance to talk to him since.

Never happened to me before. But, I definitely feel the trust violation. I certainly had different expectations.

 

[Bigshadow]

Being able to do it correct and slow doesn't mean you can do it correct and fast. It simply means you *might* be able to do it correct and fast -- you won't know until you try.

If you can do it *correct* and fast - however, it is almost certain you can do it correct and slow. Most fast stuff is "fast and sloppy" - in which doing it "slow and correct" is a much better option.



-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...

Daniel,

I think what I was trying to point out is that if people do it fast it may appear to be correct, however, they often times (in the beginning) are relying on the dynamics of speed to make it work. If you can do it correctly SLOW, then it is matter of speeding it up. If it all goes to crap when you speed it up, it was wrong, go back to the basics and see what the problem is. Obviously, once a person gets it right and can do it fast, they certainly can do it slow. This is my opinion on it anyway.

Train safe,
David

 

[DWeidman]

Daniel,

I think what I was trying to point out is that if people do it fast it may appear to be correct, however, they often times (in the beginning) are relying on the dynamics of speed to make it work. If you can do it correctly SLOW, then it is matter of speeding it up. If it all goes to crap when you speed it up, it was wrong, go back to the basics and see what the problem is. Obviously, once a person gets it right and can do it fast, they certainly can do it slow. This is my opinion on it anyway.

Train safe,
David

I couldn't agree more. We are on the same page now.

-Daniel