"Talking to the police"

[KenpoTex]

This link is to a presentation by Professor James Duane of Regent Law School on the topic of talking to the police if you are ever suspected of a crime. His position, which he backs up with case law, is that talking to the police (as opposed to letting your attorney do it) CAN DO NOTHING TO HELP YOU!

This is a topic that is of great importance for all of us since, if we are ever forced to use our training, we can almost guarentee that we will be dealing with LE personel.

Unfortunately the legal aspects of self-defense, particularly how to handle the aftermath, are topics that are seldom understood by many of us because most of us, IMO, don't take the time to research the information. I have had instructors (and have seen posts by people on this forum) who try to address this topic and end up giving information that is absolutely wrong. They are trying to be helpful, but they are not legal professionals. In fact, I've had and worked with instructors who have never even read the use of force statues for the state, but still want to discuss the legal side of SD.

Do yourself a favor and watch this video. It was taken (it appears) in one of his law classes. It is about an hour long but don't let that prevent you from watching it. It is definately information that may be (probably will be) vital if you are ever involved in a serious defensive situation. Just as a side-note, pretty much everything he says is identical to the statements made on another forum by two defense-attorneys (one of whom served as a judge for 8 years).

Do me a favor and don't argue or opine until you have had a chance to watch it.

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

 

[jks9199]

This link is to a presentation by Professor James Duane of Regent Law School on the topic of talking to the police if you are ever suspected of a crime. His position, which he backs up with case law, is that talking to the police (as opposed to letting your attorney do it) CAN DO NOTHING TO HELP YOU!

This is a topic that is of great importance for all of us since, if we are ever forced to use our training, we can almost guarentee that we will be dealing with LE personel.

Unfortunately the legal aspects of self-defense, particularly how to handle the aftermath, are topics that are seldom understood by many of us because most of us, IMO, don't take the time to research the information. I have had instructors (and have seen posts by people on this forum) who try to address this topic and end up giving information that is absolutely wrong. They are trying to be helpful, but they are not legal professionals. In fact, I've had and worked with instructors who have never even read the use of force statues for the state, but still want to discuss the legal side of SD.

Do yourself a favor and watch this video. It was taken (it appears) in one of his law classes. It is about an hour long but don't let that prevent you from watching it. It is definately information that may be (probably will be) vital if you are ever involved in a serious defensive situation. Just as a side-note, pretty much everything he says is identical to the statements made on another forum by two defense-attorneys (one of whom served as a judge for 8 years).

Do me a favor and don't argue or opine until you have had a chance to watch it.

http://www.regent.edu/admin/media/schlaw/LawPreview/

I don't have an hour to watch this video right now, so I don't know all of the professor's reasoning, but I disagree. Before I go further, let me issue the caveat that I am not providing legal advice or guidance, as I am not a lawyer.

If you have to defend yourself, and the police respond, and you say nothing, you give the responding officers nothing to work with. In some cases, that won't really matter, because the circumstances are reasonably clear or other witnesses will explain what happened. But let's take a reasonable occurrence; a fight outside a bar. No real witnesses; you walked out, and a guy jumped you. Maybe mistaken identity, maybe attempted robbery, maybe just some imagined dispute in the bar -- but we'll assume you did nothing to start the fight. You defend yourself, and the guy is KOed. He ain't talking. You say nothing, just give your identification info over. Guess what? You're probably going to jail. You can clear it up at court -- but that'll take time and money. And it won't change the existence of the arrest record, which can be an issue in some jobs.

But... if you make a brief statement to the officers outlining the basic circumstances, there's a chance they can confirm part of the account. They can at least put your side down in their report. The fact that you're working with them, at least to a minimum level, argues in your favor; you're not trying to hide anything. You don't have to go into great length. "I don't know... I walked out of the bar, I was minding my own business, and this guy was attacking me! I don't know exactly what I did, I just defended myself." is plenty. You don't need to (and probably shouldn't) say you used Koshi Guruma to throw the guy, after softening him up with a left hook, and that you used bon sao to stop the initial attack. (No, I don't know that those moves would go together well; they're just examples.) If you attempted to render aid afterwards, it would be good to mention that, too.

As the severity of the injury you inflict increases, you can expect more questions. If you're attacked by an armed person, and you kill them or deal them a serious injury (broken bones, spinal injuries, severe head trauma, etc.), you can expect more questions. You probably would find it worthwile to mention "the guy had a knife/gun/whatever, and I was in fear of my life because of that!"

In other words, cooperate, but don't volunteer too much. You're not talking to your attorney; you're talking to the first people who will be deciding whether or not there are charges to be made. Give them the info to do so fairly, instead of forcing them to decide with no information.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

The link does not work.

In my experience I have been stopped by police who said I look like a bank robber another time I was stopped by 4 officers and pulled from a Burger king because they accused me of having a gun on me!!

I always complied with the officers and answered any questions and let them search me. Now I could go into silence and say Lawyer or I do not consent to searches but guess what just because it says this and that on paper in law does not mean those who work for the law are going to follow it.

I do not mean this to be disrespectful to all LEO it just has been my experience as well as many others here in Miami.

 

[Deaf Smith]

LFI-1 Massad Ayoob.

1. When the cops arive tell them the dynamics of the situation.
That is:
a. you are the victim
b. the ones on the ground (hopefully) are the suspects
c. point out any evidence (like clubs, knives, guns, etc.. before someone in the crowed walks off with them.) Same goes for any other evidence.
d. point out any bruise, cuts, tears, etc.. done to you or others.
e. tell the cops you will co-operate 100 percent, totaly, but.... you are upset and would like to take to your lawyer first!
Then shut up! If they try to ask even make talk questions, be firm, be polite, but tell them you still want to talk to a lawyer first.

There are many reasons for the above.

1. After such an encounter you may very well not remember everything, nor even remember it in the order it happened. You can easly say something that can be taken many different ways by the cops, the same cops that use just their memory and a note pad, and what was supposed to sound like self defense, sounds to them like murder.

2. You can be pressured to say something as fact when you really are not sure it is fact. Like how many shots were fired? Did you count?

3. Being upset, you can actually feel remose even if you did fight for your life and blurt out how you are sorry it happened or you might say maybe I didnt need to shoot, or other things at the heat of the moment.

Anyway, yes you do co-operate with the police, but only have a good long talk with your lawyer to get the facts right in your head.

Deaf

 

[tshadowchaser]

As soon as I can get the link to work I will listen to Professor Duane to see what he has to say

 

[jks9199]

LFI-1 Massad Ayoob.

1. When the cops arive tell them the dynamics of the situation.
That is:
a. you are the victim
b. the ones on the ground (hopefully) are the suspects
c. point out any evidence (like clubs, knives, guns, etc.. before someone in the crowed walks off with them.) Same goes for any other evidence.
d. point out any bruise, cuts, tears, etc.. done to you or others.
e. tell the cops you will co-operate 100 percent, totaly, but.... you are upset and would like to take to your lawyer first!
Then shut up! If they try to ask even make talk questions, be firm, be polite, but tell them you still want to talk to a lawyer first.

There are many reasons for the above.

1. After such an encounter you may very well not remember everything, nor even remember it in the order it happened. You can easly say something that can be taken many different ways by the cops, the same cops that use just their memory and a note pad, and what was supposed to sound like self defense, sounds to them like murder.

2. You can be pressured to say something as fact when you really are not sure it is fact. Like how many shots were fired? Did you count?

3. Being upset, you can actually feel remose even if you did fight for your life and blurt out how you are sorry it happened or you might say maybe I didnt need to shoot, or other things at the heat of the moment.

Anyway, yes you do co-operate with the police, but only have a good long talk with your lawyer to get the facts right in your head.

Deaf

Good points.

For some of these very same reasons, there is a movement away from interviewing police officers involved in shootings until they've had some time to calm down.

The Force Science Institute has some excellent, often scholarly level, information and research on this.

 

[KenpoTex]

The link says "temporarily unavailabe due to high demand"...sorry about that, hopefully it'll come back up soon.

JKS, Prior to some recent (last few months) discussions with attorneys (including the aforementioned thread on the other forum) and then seeing this presentation, I would have agreed with you.

However, one of the points that they made was that under the stress you will be experiencing in the aftermath of a violent event, it is way too easy to say the wrong thing or to say too much. Even if you are completely innocent, it is very common for people to say something that could be damaging to them later on.

Here's the link to the discussion I mentioned previously. "Umpire" is a defense attorney and was a judge, and Mitchell Esq. is also a defense attorney. A number of police officers also posted in the thread.

http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/729104881/m/2001005253

 

[jks9199]

The link says "temporarily unavailabe due to high demand"...sorry about that, hopefully it'll come back up soon.

JKS, Prior to some recent (last few months) discussions with attorneys (including the aforementioned thread on the other forum) and then seeing this presentation, I would have agreed with you.

However, one of the points that they made was that under the stress you will be experiencing in the aftermath of a violent event, it is way too easy to say the wrong thing or to say too much. Even if you are completely innocent, it is very common for people to say something that could be damaging to them later on.

Here's the link to the discussion I mentioned previously. "Umpire" is a defense attorney and was a judge, and Mitchell Esq. is also a defense attorney. A number of police officers also posted in the thread.

http://getoffthex.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/729104881/m/2001005253

I'm not in total disagreement -- but if you don't provide at least some minimal information, the cops at the scene will have nothing to work with. I worked a case several years ago (I believe I've posted this before) where I responded, and the complainant has a bloody nose. His alleged assailant has left the scene. Based on the complainant's initial account, it seemed like an open & shut case; he got popped in the nose by the other guy. Well, there was an issue about moving the other guy's car without permission... and nobody else really wants to confirm the account. H'mm... the plot is thickening. I eventually interview the other guy, and it changes the story quite a bit. It seems that the alleged assailant had parked his car on the street, and gone into the business to pick some stuff up. The complainant goes out, and moves the car without permission. When the alleged assailant comes back, he tells the complainant not to move his car. The complainant begins to advance on the "assailant"... who is significantly larger. He pushes the complainant back, and tells him to stop. The complainant advances again, and the "assailant" hits him to get him to stop charging at him.

Kind of a different complexion on the assault, huh? But if the "assailant" had decided he couldn't talk to me without a lawyer, he would probably have been arrested. (I was actually planning to hook him when he came in for the interview!)

I'm not at all suggesting that immediately after an attack you should answer any and all questions by the cops. I don't blame someone who calls for an attorney, especially if they've seriously injured someone while defending themself. But they should provide enough of the basic info to help the cops know who needs to be hooked -- or they stand a good chance of going to jail themselves.

 

[tellner]

Yes and no. In one case with which I was peripherally involved the answer would be a definite "Talk to the police!"

A friend was walking to the bus stop at the urban university which she attends. A guy started harassing her about her head scarf. She tried to keep moving and even walked into the street to avoid him. He got in front of her and started waving a knife around. He got more and more combative. "Muslims" this. "9-11" that. "Towel head" the other thing. Started poking at her with the blade. She arranged herself so that the jerk with the knife was between her and the other guy - no more than one potential attacker at a time.

A couple young guys stood up for her and said "We're Muslims, too." She used the opportunity to disengage and get the hell out of there. She wasn't hurt. The nice young Muslim brothers were not hurt. The deranged dipwad and his friend were not hurt.

She talked to Campus Security. They didn't report the attack to the police.

The next day I took her to the Central Precinct. She gave a report to a very professional officer. The cop who took the report was very interested to note that my friend walked into traffic to avoid the situation and that the attack with a deadly weapon was based entirely on his perception of her race, religion or place of national origin.

This way the police have a description. They have a suspect. If dipwad gets arrested for something else they can see if she can identify him. The community knows about a potential danger. If he's known to the police already they have some idea that he's a danger to himself or others at the moment. And in today's paranoid times it's a great example. "Hijabi gets attacked and reports it to the police in spirit of good citizenship" is much better for police/Muslim community/greater community relations than "Hijabi feels she can't talk to the police at all and handles things privately" or "Hijabi won't talk to the police without a lawyer to make standard complaint."

Should she have hired a lawyer to make the report? Not hardly. She didn't beat the schmuck to death with her Hello Kitty water bottle. If she had, then she would have called 911, her husband, us and a lawyer. An extra couple hundred dollars in billable hours would have convinced her not to tell the police at all.

 

[tellner]

My take on dealing with the police after self defense situations goes kind of like this. JKS what do you think of it as a rule of thumb:

1. Call the police as soon as it is safe to do so.
2. Do not make sudden moves, yell or run towards the police when they arrive.
3. Do whatever they tell you, especially if they were told that shooting irons or sharp things were involved
4. Tell them you're glad they're here. Cops very seldom meet people who are happy to see them.
5. Tell them you were attacked
6. Tell them you were forced to defend yourself
7. If you were afraid the attacker was going to hurt or kill you tell the police that, too.
8. Give a description of your attacker
9. If the description is "His head looks a lot like that head over here. His body looked a lot like the body way over there", then that's the description you need to go with
10. Realize that you could be hurt without knowing it. Ask to be taken to a hospital
11. Realize that adrenaline breakdown products will screw up your judgment and make you babble. Tell the police that you're confused shaky and need to calm down before you can tell them much more. For 99.99% of people that will be the gods' own Truth.
12. As soon as you can, call your lawyer and someone who can help you deal with details without going to pieces.
13. Get photos of all your injuries and notarized copies of your medical records in the ER. Make sure your lawyer has them for future use
14. Don't sign anything.
15. Don't say anything else
16. For the love of Cthulhu don't talk to the Press
17. And that is about all you should say to anyone without your lawyers' advice.

 

[chinto]

OK if I am in a self defense situation, the first thing after calling for ambulance and law enforcement is my attorney. I will have nothing to say to the law enforcement people other then I was in fear for my life and talk to my attorney! that is it in a nut shell.. and what cops have told me to say as well!!

 

[jks9199]

My take on dealing with the police after self defense situations goes kind of like this. JKS what do you think of it as a rule of thumb:

1. Call the police as soon as it is safe to do so.
2. Do not make sudden moves, yell or run towards the police when they arrive.
3. Do whatever they tell you, especially if they were told that shooting irons or sharp things were involved
4. Tell them you're glad they're here. Cops very seldom meet people who are happy to see them.
5. Tell them you were attacked
6. Tell them you were forced to defend yourself
7. If you were afraid the attacker was going to hurt or kill you tell the police that, too.
8. Give a description of your attacker
9. If the description is "His head looks a lot like that head over here. His body looked a lot like the body way over there", then that's the description you need to go with
10. Realize that you could be hurt without knowing it. Ask to be taken to a hospital
11. Realize that adrenaline breakdown products will screw up your judgment and make you babble. Tell the police that you're confused shaky and need to calm down before you can tell them much more. For 99.99% of people that will be the gods' own Truth.
12. As soon as you can, call your lawyer and someone who can help you deal with details without going to pieces.
13. Get photos of all your injuries and notarized copies of your medical records in the ER. Make sure your lawyer has them for future use
14. Don't sign anything.
15. Don't say anything else
16. For the love of Cthulhu don't talk to the Press
17. And that is about all you should say to anyone without your lawyers' advice.

Seems a pretty reasonable approach to me.

Steps 2 & 3 -- no sudden moves, and following directions explicitly are vital, especially if you've used any sort of weapon to defend yourself. In fact, as soon as you can safely do so, I'd suggest placing the weapon on the ground -- just don't let it leave with the crowd. Even cops have been shot in the confusion of responding to the scene of a shooting.

Step 4 is nice, but probably not necessary.

Step 16 is very important. The press is nobody's friend but their own.

The bottom line is simple, in my opinion. If you give the cops nothing to work with -- I have to go by what I see, which can be very bad for a successful self-defense. If you give them something to help sort the events out, everyone stands a much better chance of the proper outcome happening. But it's easy to talk yourself into trouble in the heat of the moment... which is why lengthy statements regarding what happened should wait till you've calmed down, and you probably should consider legal guidance.

 

[jks9199]

A friend was walking to the bus stop at the urban university which she attends. A guy started harassing her about her head scarf. She tried to keep moving and even walked into the street to avoid him. He got in front of her and started waving a knife around. He got more and more combative. "Muslims" this. "9-11" that. "Towel head" the other thing. Started poking at her with the blade. She arranged herself so that the jerk with the knife was between her and the other guy - no more than one potential attacker at a time.

A couple young guys stood up for her and said "We're Muslims, too." She used the opportunity to disengage and get the hell out of there. She wasn't hurt. The nice young Muslim brothers were not hurt. The deranged dipwad and his friend were not hurt.

She talked to Campus Security. They didn't report the attack to the police.

They absolutely should have encouraged her and assisted her in making a police report. I see two explanations for why they didn't. Either they just plain didn't give a darn, or they were worried about the effects of reporting a hate crime on the university. And, as described, it was a hate crime.

The next day I took her to the Central Precinct. She gave a report to a very professional officer. The cop who took the report was very interested to note that my friend walked into traffic to avoid the situation and that the attack with a deadly weapon was based entirely on his perception of her race, religion or place of national origin.

This way the police have a description. They have a suspect. If dipwad gets arrested for something else they can see if she can identify him. The community knows about a potential danger. If he's known to the police already they have some idea that he's a danger to himself or others at the moment. And in today's paranoid times it's a great example. "Hijabi gets attacked and reports it to the police in spirit of good citizenship" is much better for police/Muslim community/greater community relations than "Hijabi feels she can't talk to the police at all and handles things privately" or "Hijabi won't talk to the police without a lawyer to make standard complaint."

One note: While this was a very well handled self defense situation (and proof that not all self defense involves hands on combat!), it wasn't a situation where she (or anyone) used force to defend themselves. Ideally, she'd have made the police report right then -- so that the ******* with the knife could be caught and dealt with before he hurt someone. Please, never hesitate to call the cops -- especially if weapons and assaultive behavior are involved. The worst you'll ever do is save someone a traffic ticket!

 

[Bodhisattva]

The link does not work.

In my experience I have been stopped by police who said I look like a bank robber another time I was stopped by 4 officers and pulled from a Burger king because they accused me of having a gun on me!!

I always complied with the officers and answered any questions and let them search me. Now I could go into silence and say Lawyer or I do not consent to searches but guess what just because it says this and that on paper in law does not mean those who work for the law are going to follow it.

I do not mean this to be disrespectful to all LEO it just has been my experience as well as many others here in Miami.

It is that way all over. Several times when an officer asked if I consented to a search of my vehicle, and I responded "I would rather you did not search my vehicle." He responded with "you watch too much tv.." and "I think I will anyway.." and other similar responses.

I had one cop threaten to break my wrist because I wouldn't tell him why a friend was on probation.

I've never once in my life treated cops disrespectfully, either. I received this treatment to my surprise while being respectful.

 

[tellner]

They absolutely should have encouraged her and assisted her in making a police report. I see two explanations for why they didn't. Either they just plain didn't give a darn, or they were worried about the effects of reporting a hate crime on the university. And, as described, it was a hate crime.

It's not just hate crimes. Campus security departments don't like to have the police involved in anything unless it's absolutely necessary. Universities are notorious for hiding serious crimes and handling them with informal discipline procedures. Reported crimes make the institution look bad and cost money. It's at its worst with sexual assault.

One note: While this was a very well handled self defense situation (and proof that not all self defense involves hands on combat!), it wasn't a situation where she (or anyone) used force to defend themselves. Ideally, she'd have made the police report right then -- so that the ******* with the knife could be caught and dealt with before he hurt someone. Please, never hesitate to call the cops -- especially if weapons and assaultive behavior are involved. The worst you'll ever do is save someone a traffic ticket!

I agree absolutely and 100%. It was all she was up to to talk the University's security people at the time. It took a while to convince her to make a police report. The whole "bad thing go away" post-event syndrome and the Adrenaline Monster had their claws into her. You just have to do the best you can with the situation you're in. Maybe this will make it easier for the next person to come forward a little sooner.

 

[KenpoTex]

The link appears to be working again, there is also an option now to download the presentation from i-tunes.

 

[KenpoTex]

continuing with the question of whether or not to talk to the police...

The following is an excerpt from a post written by a former judge/current defense attorney after he participated in some "Force-on-Force" training:

We all have this idea in our minds about how we will perform under stress. The idea is flawed. Even though I KNEW the scenarios were not life threatening, and even though I KNOW what is relevant in terms of the legal issues; my ability to accurately relate "what happened" and the details of the confrontations was as flawed as the next guy.

Just as the IDPA guys in class were not better/worse than the rest as far as shooting performance; my ability as a witness/participant was no better/worse than the layman. Which leads me to state with even MORE conviction; ASK TO TALK TO A LAWYER-THEN SHUT YOUR MOUTH.

The full discussion can be found here (forum requires registration).

 

[Balrog]

Seems a pretty reasonable approach to me.

Steps 2 & 3 -- no sudden moves, and following directions explicitly are vital, especially if you've used any sort of weapon to defend yourself. In fact, as soon as you can safely do so, I'd suggest placing the weapon on the ground -- just don't let it leave with the crowd. Even cops have been shot in the confusion of responding to the scene of a shooting.

Some extra points.

If you have a cell phone, call 911 and stay on the phone with the dispatcher. Describe yourself to them so that they can relay the description to the responding officers. If you are on the phone with dispatch when they arrive, that is even better. Don't hang up unless the dispatcher tells you to.

If you have disarmed the attacker and have the weapon in your hands, it is best to place it on the ground and put a foot on it if you need to make sure it doesn't "grow feet and run off". As soon as the first officer arrives, make sure your hands are visible and empty, and announce that you are standing on the weapon. Ask them what they want you to do, then follow their instructions.

 

[jks9199]

Just a bump, since the topic is gonna come up soon elsewhere...

 

[allenjp]

I'm afraid I kinda have to come down on both sides of the issue here.

First off I should say I am not an attorney, but I work closely with them, both defense (public and private) and prosecution every single day and discuss many cases with them every single day while I am helping them communicate with their clients, witnesses, victims etc...and I also have many discussions with the police involved in these incidents on a daily basis. In fact many times I have more info about the case than either side because I can be working for both sides at the same time. I have also witnessed and participated in probably a hundred criminal trials in which I have been present for the entire proceeding, heard comments from both judge and attorney alike that juries and press do not hear, and heard LEO conversations that do not make it to the public eye.

I have been told by more than one defense attorney "if noone talked to the police we would never have any convictions in court". And many more times than that I have heard defense attorneys tell their clients "next time do not talk to the cops". And I have seen in different cases how this can be adviseable. What people don't realize many time is that the police are not anybody's friends in these situations. I do not mean to say that they are hostile to everyone, just that they do not have an interest in helping people avoid criminal charges, they are interested in investigating crimes and making arrests accordingly. One of their best tools in investigations is to make it seem that they are friendly with people to get them talking. I have seen too many statements made to the police, under the guise of friendliness, that the person making the statements almost seemed to think were made in confidence, used to arrest them and later against them in court. My first impulse is to say as little as possible, and if possible nothing.

However it should be noted that the average person should not be only concerned with avoiding a conviction, but also being arrested in the first place. Not only because of the future implications an arrest can have with employment, but also because it can be hard to post bail, and a lot of times you are looking at at least a month or two in jail while waiting for vindication at trial. Looking at it from this point of view, there are some things, very minimal things, that may be advantageous to say to avoid an arrest. I have said what IMO those things are in other posts, and it is similar to what people have said here. But IMO it is best to limit the conversation to one short statement that you were the one attacked and that you were afraid for your safety. Then shut the hell up.

At the very least I would say that if it at any point becomes clear that you are going to be arrested, you should shut the hell up, and not talk again until it is with a defense attorney.

As to kenpotex's statements about people on this thread who are making "wrong" assertions, if that comment is directed at my posts, I postulate the following: one does not necessarily need to be an attorney, much less a judge to have experience and understand how the justice system and criminal trial system work. Even many people who have been to jail several times and been through the whole process may be able to shed some light on this issue.

I also stress again that since laws, procedures, and jury tendencies vary so much from area to area, any opinions should be expressed particular to the area that the person has experience in. Mine are only from California, specifically southern California.