Takedown Defense

[Kung Fu Wang]

What should takedown defense include? Your thought?

 

[_Simon_]

Knee to groin.


... isn't that the only one that's taught?

[emoji848]

 

[jobo]

What should takedown defense include? Your thought?

Don't let them get hold of you, that is really the only one you need, followed by knees to groin just in case they do

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Frames
Grip fighting
Pummeling
Changing levels
Posture
Sprawling
Disrupting an opponent's structure and balance
Maintaining your own structure and balance
Application of underhooks and overhooks
Head control
Basic proficiency in common high percentage takedowns (understanding how to do the technique helps to understand how to defeat it)
Specific counters to common high percentage takedowns
Efficient methods for preventing control and immediately regaining the feet if you are taken down

If you have a solid grasp of all the above and can also strike effectively at the same time, you will b e hard to take down in a fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Frames
Grip fighting
Pummeling
Changing levels
Posture
Sprawling
Disrupting an opponent's structure and balance
Maintaining your own structure and balance
Application of underhooks and overhooks
Head control
Basic proficiency in common high percentage takedowns (understanding how to do the technique helps to understand how to defeat it)
Specific counters to common high percentage takedowns
Efficient methods for preventing control and immediately regaining the feet if you are taken down

If you have a solid grasp of all the above and can also strike effectively at the same time, you will b e hard to take down in a fight.

This is one of my beefs with the idea of takedown defense being a separate topic. Most of what you include above is basic grappling principles. If you understand basic grappling, you're halfway to takedown defense. If you don't, your "takedown defense" training needs to include a lot of what makes grappling work.

That's not to say that an art with a heavy striking emphasis can't be good at teaching defense against takedown, but I don't see how it can be done without getting into grappling basics.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

understanding how to do the technique helps to understand how to defeat it.

This requirement by itself will take some serious training time.

For example, in order to understand how to deal with the "leg lift" throw, one has to learn how to execute it. This defense is different from single leg, double legs, hip throw, foot sweep, ...

I still remember it took me a lot of training time before I could feel comfortable to "ride on my opponent's back".

 

[JowGaWolf]

What should takedown defense include? Your thought?

For a takedown defense you only need to include a well defined understanding of the following.
1. Footwork.
2. Mechanics of a take down or take downs. You don't need to know how to do them, just need to know when you are in danger for certain take downs.
3. Escapes
4. Recoveries
5. Counters (where someone attacks with a take down and you counter with one of your own, or counter with a technique that interrupts your opponents techniques.)

These are the 6 basic areas I would personally cover in terms of take down defense. I have a few more that I'm only going to publish on my website. But other than this if a person covers these 6 areas then they are going to be able to do fairly well in resisting a take down. This will give anyone a good starting point in building a good foundation. There are some other things that I left out, but these 5 things will give anyone a good chance to get out of trouble or avoid it.

The most important thing to remember with all of this is to understand that "YOU CAN BE GRABBED. and IT WILL HAPPEN WHEN YOU LEAST EXPECT IT."

 

[wingchun100]

Sprawl.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most of what you include above is basic grappling principles. If you understand basic grappling, you're halfway to takedown defense.

I agree with this. I think Takedown Oefense requires less training than Takedown Offense. If you can get the basics then you can avoid a lot of the simple mistakes that people make when facing someone who likes to grab. It'll help them to avoid putting themselves in bad situations. For example, if you can't wrestle be mindful of the space between you and the attacker. Look for that "Pounce look" or "catch look" as you are trying to deliver strikes.

A lot of fighting has to do with "How familiar with the attacks that are coming in." Regardless of systems, in a fight most people fall back on basics. Very few of us are going to get into a fight with an "expert." and if we do, many of us will know right away the difference in skill level. It's sort of like holding a punching mit. It only takes 2 punches to identify who hits harder than you. The first punch raises the question. The second punch verifies the answer. The third punch is the realization that the person hits harder than you.. In terms of grappling. The movement raises the question. The attempt verifies the answer. The clinch or takedown is the realization that the person is better than you with grappling.

Edit: My brother only needs to grab a person once, for them to realize that they are out of their league in terms of grappling. Grapplers have a strength in their grip that only comes from grappling. When that grip locks it's a understanding that you aren't going to win the grappling game by playing the grappling game.

 

[JowGaWolf]

or example, in order to understand how to deal with the "leg lift" throw, one has to learn how to execute it.

Not really. You don't have to learn it to in order to know how to deal with it. I can teach you a defense for a take down and explain why the take down works. I can then show you where the take down technique fails and when you should be concern. If any of those instances occur then "do this " to delay or escape.

I don't need to know how to grab someone's wrist in order to escape it. A person doesn't need to know how to punch in order to block a punch. If you can get a feel of what someone might try to do, then many times you can simply position yourself in a way that makes it more difficult for the opponent to execute their technique.


Edit: When I was teaching some of the students didn't know how to execute a technique. I showed them a simple defense for the take down, and I attacked them with that take down. They learned to spot when I was trying to position them and myself for the move, once they recognized my intent they were able to use the defensive technique against me even though they didn't know how to actually do the take down that I was trying to take them down with.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Question: Do I know how to defend against the takedown attempts because I know how to do the takedown that they were trying to use against me? Or do I recognize the basics of the takedown, understand where the technique will fail, and when is my best time to make the technique fail? I can never truly know what you will ultimately do after you grab my leg. There's no way for me to know what technique will follow. The only thing I know for sure is that you have a limited window to make it happen and I have a limited window to interrupt your plans. For all an opponent could be going for a single leg take down with the ultimate goal of choking me out, putting me in an arm bar, or simply taking top position, and smashing the back of my skull into the ground. The only thing I know for sure is that if I can interrupt or even delay the initial step towards the grab or take down, then I can ultimately prevent the take down. If I can't prevent the take down, then I need to continue to interrupt with the goal of being able to recover quickly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You don't have to learn it to in order to know how to deal with it.

Of course if you use footwork, maintain distance, never let your opponent to grab on you, none of your opponent's throw will work on you. But the issue is when your opponent has grips on you already.

For example, if you

- grab on my wrist, I'll need to know that to twist against your thumb (1 finger) will be easier than to twist against your other 4 fingers.
- arm wrap around my waist, I'll need to know how to crack that elbow joint.
- grab on my leading leg, I'll need to know how to extend my leg between your legs and push back on your both shoulders.
- lock my head, I'll need to know how to hear hug you from behind and lift you off the ground.
- bear hug me from the behind, I'll need to know how to sticky my leg on your leg and lock my body on your body.
- bear hug me from the front, I'll need to know how to push your forehead back and put pressure on your neck.
- ...

All those knowledge are different. There is no general master key that can open all locks.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I agree with this. I think Takedown Oefense requires less training than Takedown Offense.

This is true. However...

The better your takedown offense is, the better your takedown defense will be.

You can only get so good at takedown defense without training with good takedown specialists. Unless you train at a good MMA gym, you are unlikely to have a good pool of sparring partners who are good takedown technicians and are interested in practicing takedowns while you just work on standing up and striking. Otherwise, in order to get those training partners you're going to have to attend some grappling classes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All those knowledge are different. There is no general master key that can open all locks.

There is no master key but everything, EVERYTHING starts with basic movements that lead to more advanced movements. Show me any technique from stance, to execution, to end. And I'll show you where the basics occurred.

A person walks by putting one foot in front of the other. This is the most basic of movement. A person shifts weight during movement. This is also a basic of movement. The interruption of these movements can be exploited in similar ways because it's these motions that occur before the actual technique. Recognize this and you can interrupt a variety of techniques without having knowledge about what is actually going to be done to you.

The better your takedown offense is, the better your takedown defense will be.

My take down defense is much better than my take down offense. I've had more opportunity to defend against takedowns vs applying takedowns. I can do a couple, but if you get me on the ground then my options quickly begin to vanish. In terms of fighting on the ground, I haven't had enough, On the ground practice to know how to get out or recognize when something is coming. When a person is on the ground, the mechanics of movement change and aren't as basic as one foot in front of the other and weight shift.

The weight shift is different and what may feel as an opportunity to free myself may actually be "quick sand" that puts me into more trouble. The only thing I know about fighting on the actual ground is controlling grabs (when someone is trying to control vs lead).

sparring partners who are good takedown technicians and are interested in practicing takedowns while you just work on standing up and striking.

This is usually where I train. I practice the stand up game and they practice the takedown game. My effort is to not be on the ground. Their effort is to put me on the ground. This type of training is where I gain my familiarity from. But it's limited. My idea situation would be to do this and then be on the ground where my sparring partner will work to keep me on the ground and I will work to get off the ground. It's this second part that I'm missing a lot of my training from.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My take down defense is much better than my take down offense.

That's pretty common. However if you spent more time building your takedown offense, your takedown defense would also improve as a consequence.

My idea situation would be to do this and then be on the ground where my sparring partner will work to keep me on the ground and I will work to get off the ground. It's this second part that I'm missing a lot of my training from.

This is an area which is sadly often neglected.

Standup arts tend to not cover it at all or else come up with bogus methods which are ineffective because they've never been tested against a competent opponent.

BJJ practitioners often neglect it because they typically want to fight on the ground.

Judo players often neglect it because a) a match can be ended by a good throw and b) groundwork time is limited, so it's easier to just stall and wait for a standup then do the work of fighting to the feet.

Freestyle/folkstyle wrestlers are some of the best at escaping to the feet. Modern MMA fighters are getting good at it too.

I periodically make my students practice sparring where they have to get back to their feet after a takedown. I think that without that practice it's too easy for BJJ players to get complacent on the ground.

If a standup striker asks me what I can teach them of value in a short time, my number one answer is to show them how to escape bad positions on the ground and get back to their feet safely.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If a standup striker asks me what I can teach them of value in a short time, my number one answer is to show them how to escape bad positions on the ground and get back to their feet safely.

You would be a good partner to train with.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

You would be a good partner to train with.

When I work with someone who has prior experience, I figure it just makes sense to get the maximum benefit from the skills they already have. If you already know how to win a fight on your feet, I don’t need to teach you how to win on the ground. I just need to teach you how to not lose on the ground and get back to where you are comfortable.

Even if someone does want to learn my art in depth, I find the process can go quicker if I can leverage concepts they already understand in one domain and show how to apply those ideas to what I am teaching.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Sprawl.

Sprawl is effective, but only against certain takedowns. It actually makes others easier.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. You don't have to learn it to in order to know how to deal with it. I can teach you a defense for a take down and explain why the take down works. I can then show you where the take down technique fails and when you should be concern. If any of those instances occur then "do this " to delay or escape.

I don't need to know how to grab someone's wrist in order to escape it. A person doesn't need to know how to punch in order to block a punch. If you can get a feel of what someone might try to do, then many times you can simply position yourself in a way that makes it more difficult for the opponent to execute their technique.


Edit: When I was teaching some of the students didn't know how to execute a technique. I showed them a simple defense for the take down, and I attacked them with that take down. They learned to spot when I was trying to position them and myself for the move, once they recognized my intent they were able to use the defensive technique against me even though they didn't know how to actually do the take down that I was trying to take them down with.

I'd say it's fair that the person teaching has to be able to do the takedown (so they truly understand the mechanics, and so there's something to practice against). I might manage to defend against that leg throw KFW posted, because I've done a lot of grappling and defended against a lot of different things, some of which share mechanics with that. I probably can't effectively teach a specific defense to that throw, because my responses would be by "feel" rather than considered counters.

 

[Martial D]

Frames
Grip fighting
Pummeling
Changing levels
Posture
Sprawling
Disrupting an opponent's structure and balance
Maintaining your own structure and balance
Application of underhooks and overhooks
Head control
Basic proficiency in common high percentage takedowns (understanding how to do the technique helps to understand how to defeat it)
Specific counters to common high percentage takedowns
Efficient methods for preventing control and immediately regaining the feet if you are taken down

If you have a solid grasp of all the above and can also strike effectively at the same time, you will b e hard to take down in a fight.

Not much h to add to this, other than get good at doing takedowns yourself. Once you understand a takedown on a functional level it's much easier to defend it or counter it.