Taichi push hand

[Zeny]

Hi all

I’m back!

Life happened

And I wrote a taichi book

Check out this video, there’s a link to a preview of the book

Would love to hear your feedback and comment

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What's the combat value to push your opponent away?

In a car accident, I prevented a guy from going back to his car. Later on the police found out that guy had a gun in his glove compartment.

One should keep his friend close, but his enemy closer.

Do you feel safer when your opponent is under your control (instead of moving away from you)?

 

[Zeny]

No combat value

We are just playing

Better practise sparring if want to learn combat

Its like a paintball game

Paintball is not a military exercise

A soldier asks a paintball player, what is the combat value of playing paintball, you should aim real guns!

Paintball player: ...

Two different worlds

 

[drop bear]

What's the combat value to push your opponent away?

In a car accident, I prevented a guy from going back to his car. Later on the police found out that guy had a gun in his glove compartment.

One should keep his friend close, but his enemy closer.

Do you feel safer when your opponent is under your control (instead of moving away from you)?

You can utilise it in striking against a clinch attempt.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No combat value ...

You can make it to have combat value. If you can control your opponent's leg/legs, your push can be a throw.

- 1 point contact is a push.
- 2 points contact in the opposite direction is a throw.

 

[Zeny]

As you said, pushing is of limited value in combat

I prefer to keep things separate

If you mix it it becomes neither here nor there

Opps the moderator removed the youtube link

Please pm me if you would like a free preview copy of my book

 

[Flying Crane]

Of course push-hands has combat value. It’s one-to-one translation applications may not be 100%, but it develops attributes that are useful in combat and raises one’s skill level. Attributes like rooting, finding the enemy’s center of balance and gravity, sensitivity to his movement, redirecting his aggression, manipulating and controlling his movement. How is any of that irrelevant to combat?

The mistake is when people expect push-hands to translate directly to combat 100%. Well, nothing does that except actual combat itself. Not even sparring. But if people think that skill in push-hands is all that is needed for combat, there is the mistake. There is more to it than that. But push hands can absolutely be useful in developing combat skills, it can be part of a useful toolbox.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Of course push-hands has combat value.

It's not that difficult to add in the control of your opponent's leg when you do Taiji PH. You can control your opponent's leg with your hand, or with your leg.

As you said, pushing is of limited value in combat

I prefer to keep things separate.

It always a good idea to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

 

[Zeny]

Of course push-hands has combat value. It’s one-to-one translation applications may not be 100%, but it develops attributes that are useful in combat and raises one’s skill level. Attributes like rooting, finding the enemy’s center of balance and gravity, sensitivity to his movement, redirecting his aggression, manipulating and controlling his movement. How is any of that irrelevant to combat?

The mistake is when people expect push-hands to translate directly to combat 100%. Well, nothing does that except actual combat itself. Not even sparring. But if people think that skill in push-hands is all that is needed for combat, there is the mistake. There is more to it than that. But push hands can absolutely be useful in developing combat skills, it can be part of a useful toolbox.

In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value

If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value

Rope jumping has combat value

Reading about boxing has combat value

Everything has combat value

That makes the phrase combat value meaningless for discussion

For me, I do push hands for fun

If I want to learn to fight, then although everything helps, the most important thing is to spar

 

[Zeny]

It always a good idea to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I prefer to keep things separate

When we play paintball, we play paintball

I don’t play paintball to learn to be a soldier

But you can do what you want, of course

 

[Xue Sheng]

In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value

If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value

Rope jumping has combat value

Reading about boxing has combat value

Everything has combat value

That makes the phrase combat value meaningless for discussion

For me, I do push hands for fun

If I want to learn to fight, then although everything helps, the most important thing is to spar

Push hands training is directly related to the usage of taijiquan in a fight. and that was its original purpose. It does not have to be trained that way if you do not wish to train it that way, but it is part of the martial training of taijiquan. It is not directly applicable in most cases, but in some it is, and it does have it uses in training/learning the proper application of taijiquan in a confrontation.

 

[Flying Crane]

In the karate kid movie / cobra kai series, cleaning the wall has combat value

If combat value means anything that can add to combat skills, then jogging has combat value

Rope jumping has combat value

Reading about boxing has combat value

Everything has combat value

That makes the phrase combat value meaningless for discussion

For me, I do push hands for fun

If I want to learn to fight, then although everything helps, the most important thing is to spar

That’s fine. If push hands is just for fun for you, no worries. But that doesn’t change the fact that it is part of a functional method for developing combat skills.

Just to note: running helps combat skills. That is why every military today includes running as part of the conditioning for their soldiers, and every competitive fighter does road work. Likewise jumping rope contributes to combat skill, which is why it is used by boxers in their conditioning. Sure, these things aren’t direct application to fighting technique, but they develop attributes that are definitely useful for fighting. Neither are required to be a good fighter. But they are definitely helpful.

I would say that push hands has a greater direct application than either running or jumping rope, in terms of applied technique.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And I wrote a taichi book

Check out this video, there’s a link to a preview of the book

Would love to hear your feedback and comment

Does your Taiji book have combat application?

 

[Zeny]

Does your Taiji book have combat application?

There’s some discussion on timing, methods of countering incoming force and methods of issuing force.

No discussion on leg sweep, throwdowns or punching someone in the face tho.

 

[Zeny]

Below is a good video on the value of push hands, which I agree

Watch from 11:10 to 12:00

He said push hands is good for developing a lot of skills, but if want to fight in the ring, then need to learn to fight in the ring

That is why I avoid saying push hands has combat value, because that inevitably invites a challenge to show using push hands skill in an actual fight

Doing push hands does not mean we can become good fighters, to be good at fighting, we need to learn to fight

Don’t know why we are having this discussion because everyone here obviously knows the value of push hands and its limitations

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Taij PH can be so abstract.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Doing push hands does not mean we can become good fighters, to be good at fighting, we need to learn to fight

I agree. This is true for any system. I could do boxing fitness classes everyday and never gain any real fighting skill to apply. Even having a good punch doesn't mean that a person now has fighting skills.

Don’t know why we are having this discussion because everyone here obviously knows the value of push hands and its limitations

Yep.
I think this issue is that you'll have to deal with is not about the limitations of push hands but the exaggeration of push hands. There's people out there who take advantage of it and make it more than what it really is. I learned it from a combat perspective and a lot of the "magic" about it goes away really quickly. From my perspective training it as a fighting system put it into perspective and helped to keep me grounded.

Based on that perspective my personal opinion is that all martial arts should be treated as a fighting system, even if the person doesn't want to learn how to fight. By training it as a fighting system it's possible to keep the context and the reality of the system accurate. But when you train something outside of the context of fighting then it becomes something different. The actions in push hands no longer are done in the context of fighting so you push hand in a manner that you wouldn't in a fight. It's no different than being good at doing kung fu demos. Things often happen in demos that would never happen in a fight. This is because the context has changed. Kung fu is no longer good for fighting, because it's being done in the context of making good looking demos

If people want to stay healthy then fight (spar). It doesn't have to be hard sparring. It could be light sparring. 1 minute of good light sparring with movement is surprisingly challenging, even for people who are in shape. Sparring is a good outlet for teaching control (physically, mentally, emotionally). You can still do push hands in sparring, it's just going to take more effort especially if the person isn't willing to grapple. But by doing so you are able to keep it within the context of fighting.

Do I do push hands? Yes, when someone is willing to train it with me.
Has push hands helped me in fighting? Yes, but along the line of sensitivity and recognizing which way I should let my opponents energy flow. Thanks to push hands, I can tell if someone is rooted or not by how the punches land on me people who drive power through there legs, hips, or just arms, all have a different feel. Push hands has helped me with that. But I think it only helped me because of the context of how I train push hands. I don't think I would have gained the same skill sets if I would have practiced push hands out of the context of fighting. When I train push hands it looks like what you are doing, but the context is different and I'm just a big believer that the context of how we do things matters. It's like reading a book. You can read car manual to help you go to sleep or you can read it to help you learn about your car. Context is everything

 

[Flying Crane]

Below is a good video on the value of push hands, which I agree

Watch from 11:10 to 12:00

He said push hands is good for developing a lot of skills, but if want to fight in the ring, then need to learn to fight in the ring

That is why I avoid saying push hands has combat value, because that inevitably invites a challenge to show using push hands skill in an actual fight

Doing push hands does not mean we can become good fighters, to be good at fighting, we need to learn to fight

Don’t know why we are having this discussion because everyone here obviously knows the value of push hands and its limitations

I would say that we are having this discussion because you started a thread where you stated that you wrote a book on Taiji and you posted a video of you doing push hands. This sends a message that you consider yourself knowledgeable on the topic, and a reasonable assumption that you would consider push hands as a useful tool for developing fighting skills. Maybe you don’t feel that way, maybe your position is more nuanced (which I consider to be a good thing) but I think the assumption is reasonable.

As you say, if you wan to learn to fight in the ring then you need to get in and fight in the ring. But I am certain that no successful MMA school simply throws their students into the ring without a whole lot of technical and strategy training first and ongoing. I would hazard that the time spent fighting in a ring is a small fraction of the total training time, with far more time spent on honing technique, hitting pads and heavy bags, doing interacting partnering drills that have more control and focus on specific skills than you can do simply fighting in a ring. Within the context of Taiji, I would include push hands in this group of training methods. In short, learning to fight in the ring takes far far more than getting in and fighting in a ring.

I will also point out that by far, most people involved in the martial arts have no interest in ever fighting in a ring. We have this false dichotomy where people seem to want to claim that you have two (and only two) choices in martial arts: become an MMA champion, or else you have zero fighting skills. This is, of course, an absurd position. MMA is not the definitive yardstick against which all martial arts must be measured. There is a whole lot of room between MMA champion and Zero Skills, and much of that room includes effective fighting skills. Let’s be honest: there are a whole lot of folks who would not last ten seconds against an MMA champion, or even a lower level MMA competitor, who nevertheless can defend themselves quite handily against most anyone who might try to give them trouble on the street.

Now if MMA type competition, or fighting in a ring is what you want to do, then you would be well advised to get an experienced coach and follow the training methods that have been shown to be effective to that end. But for those who have no interest in that kind of thing, there are other effective methods that can build useful skills. I hold that push hands can be one of those tools, if practiced appropriately as part of a larger training routine. And I will be among the first to acknowledge that good teachers who can train you correctly in Taiji and push hands are few and far between and that many people who practice Taiji and push hands do so at a low level and probably cannot fight. But that is a problem in how the training is being done and not with the tools themselves.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I will also point out that by far, most people involved in the martial arts have no interest in ever fighting in a ring. We have this false dichotomy where people seem to want to claim that you have two (and only two) choices in martial arts: become an MMA champion, or else you have zero fighting skills.

I agree with this and would even say that there is a culture where sparring or training to fight is a bad thing that should only be done if your plans are to fight. People can train those aspects and get the benefit from them. Sparring or training to fight doesn't mean one is suddenly going to be in a bunch of real fights, or in MMA competitions. Those things can be done at different levels of intensity which will allow people to get the benefits of the training. Fighting or doing competition is an option. Knowing how to fight doesn't mean fighting is the only option. Many of us know how to fight, but are more likely to walk away from one, and have no interest in competing in MMA. But if there ever comes a time where we NEED to fight to ensure our safety. We will be more than happy to "light that fire."

 

[Xue Sheng]

Said this a long long time ago on MT, possibly 10 years ago or more

MMA trains to fight a person in the ring that they will very likely see again, and possibly fight again
TMA trains to fight a person they hope to never see again, for that matter, they hope to never fight in the first place