Tai Chi rooting vs takedowns...

Discussion in 'Chinese Internal Arts : Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and Qi' started by TMA17, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    No! I believe Taiji has push. Taiji doesn't have throw. The concept of "throw" is not in Taiji's DNA. In order to apply a throw, you have to execute 2 forces in the opposite directions at the same time. Taiji just doesn't have such training.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    Sometime you don't have to enter competition. The competition will come to you.

    Many years ago a famous Taiji master (I won't mention his name here) had argument with a wrestler. The wrestler used bear hug to lift the Taiji master's body off the ground. The Taiji master didn't know how to get out of that situation.

    Similar situation happened in Taiwan. One day in the park, a Bagua guy Bruce Frantzis asked a Taiji master the application of "needle at the bottom of the sea". Bruce suddenly got a bear hug on that Taiji master from behind. Bruce then asked that Taiji master, "What can you do now?" Since that Taiji master was also a Chinese wrestling master, he

    - twisted his right leg on Bruce's left leg,
    - made a circular hop with his left leg,
    - lifted Bruce's left leg off the ground with his right leg,
    - pulled Bruce's right shoulder back,
    - rotated Bruce's body to the right, and
    - took Bruce down.

    If a MA person cannot use his MA skill to solve the real world problem, his MA ability is useless.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    10,748
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    Why do you assume he cannot use it?
     
  4. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    You can't assume he can use it either. That clip shows he has defensive skill. That clip shows he has no offensive skill.
     
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2005
    Messages:
    10,748
    Likes Received:
    1,513
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    San Francisco
    The absence of evidence is not the same as evidence of absence.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    New Mexico
    When I refer to throw I don't mean the conceptual energy "throw". To be more specific, a technique to take an opponent down. This include throwing, sweeping and takedown techniques. The Tai Chi style I studied had takedowns. Not all takedowns require 2 opposing forces to be executed by the practitioner.
     
  7. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    New Mexico
    Tai Chi has so much more to offer than what he "demonstrated." Someone with basic grappling skills and only focused on takedown defense could've achieved the same thing. He proved nothing for Tai Chi.
     
  8. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    New Mexico
    By that same logic I'll drill holes in my car to make it go faster. Is there evidence that says doing so will make it faster? No. But there's no evidence that states that it won't. I'll start believing in fairies, goblins and witches too. Again, no evidence refutes their existence.
     
  9. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    What you may call "energy throw", I'll call it "push".

    Even the "foot sweep" will require you to

    - sweep the leg up, and
    - pull the shoulder down.

    The Taiji "diagonal fly" will require you to

    - push your opponent's upper body with your shoulder, and
    - block his legs with your leading leg.

    Of course you can twist your opponent's shoulders and take him down. That also require you to

    - rotate one of your opponent's shoulder clockwise, and
    - rotate his other shoulder counter-wise.

    The follow picture shows "push".

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  10. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    New Mexico
    There are trips which are just a sweep variants, you position yourself close to your opponent, take his balance, and essentially walk through his space taking him to the ground.

    So you do or don't consider that opposing forces? I don't know if you're using this as an example for or against opposing forces.

    The only way for me to that is to break his torso in half and rotate the two halves independently. Meaning, both shoulders are going in the same direction, no opposing forces.
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2012
    Messages:
    5,840
    Likes Received:
    1,404
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
    When apply twisting, it can be considered as one hand push forward while another hand pull back.

    Many MA systems has "trip" that you use your leg to block your opponent's leg. The issue is your opponent can still step over your trip. If you hook your opponent's leg, it will be much more difficult for him to escape.

    You can have:

    1. 1 point push.
    2. 2 points push and trip.
    3. 2 points push and hook.

    3 > 2 > 1

    Here is an example of "push and hook".

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
  12. Anarax

    Anarax 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2017
    Messages:
    781
    Likes Received:
    221
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    New Mexico
    It's a circular motion, which are very prevalent in Tai Chi.

    This isn't about what's effective, it's a response to your opposing forces comment. I gave you an example of a takedown without opposing forces.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Damned skippy. I'd stand up real straight if an elephant grabbed me like that.
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Agreed. I saw a couple of places where a bit more commitment to the technique (reaping) would probably have off-balanced the Tai Chi guy, and places where feints likely would have opened up hip throws. And that Judo BB should be better at that than I am, so he must have been being very gentle. It's hard not to go gentler when you get someone you suspect doesn't know the falls (some of the throws I saw openings for are hard to fall from) and who is older. It wasn't an MMA competition, so he was just trying the easy entries to throws. That said, it's a good testament to the translation of Tai Chi rooting into resisting throws - it did take away all the easy throws that most non-grapplers are easily taken by.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    There's this duality in SD. When defending "in the street", we don't have to score, so we can afford to play defense. But we can't afford to keep giving them (or their friends, or well-meaning but ill-informed third parties) opportunities to hurt us. So, to me, the patience of BJJ's approach on the ground can be over-cooked for SD (I get into that, myself, in ground work), but is also a useful trait to cultivate.

    We can be more patient and defensive, except when we can't. I'm not sure how we classify the difference, except in that moment. So we need both the ability to be super-aggressive ("I gotta win and get out, or I'm not gonna make it!") and the ability to be patient and defensive ("I need to get out, so I can stall for an opportunity."). I think most martial arts training (at least most of what I've seen) has at least some of both elements.
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Yes. If they just want to throw me (and nobody else is interfering), I can most likely stymie them indefinitely. If they want to punch, and punch often enough, I'm going to eventually miss a key block unless they are pretty bad at it. I guess we could add patient offense against some of those folks (using a few kicks and long-range punches to keep them out of flurry range) to help, but each attempted strike is still a chance to mess up and get clobbered.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    I'm not sure how much of a factor that is. Those who train without shoes don't tend to get best use of grippy-soled shoes. Some of that is on purpose (as in my case, since dress shoes aren't usually very grippy, for instance).
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    15,128
    Likes Received:
    3,249
    Trophy Points:
    308
    You also have to switch between punching defence and takedown defence. Or swich between punching and takedown defence.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    Agreed. Part of training should be purely defensive. Part should be purely offensive. And much of it should be learning to blend the two effectively.
     
  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    15,139
    Likes Received:
    4,245
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    More clearly stated, that clip shows no evidence of offensive skill.
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

tai chi rooting video