Tai Chi rooting vs takedowns...

Discussion in 'Chinese Internal Arts : Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and Qi' started by TMA17, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Off the top of my head, I can't think of a takedown or throw that doesn't use opposing forces, except some that I consider esoteric - meaning they don't have direct application (and even most of those require opposing forces). Can you describe one or point me to a video so I can understand what you're talking about?
     
  2. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    That goes beyond his statement. If I drive my car at the speed limit, you have no evidence it can go faster. But that doesn't prove it can't - just that it didn't. That's all he's saying. We can't say there's no takedown skill simply because we didn't see it used. Had we seen him try, and he had demonstrated that lack of takedown skill, then we'd have evidence. Lack of evidence is a good reason to be skeptical of claims (so we don't believe in fairy stories), but we can't really draw conclusions from it.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    On that last one, you are correct that they'd both be going in the same circular direction. But that is opposing forces on his stance, and opposing forces from the thrower. One shoulder is being moved forward, and the other backward. That creates the opposing forces. For the throw to be effective, one shoulder has to (relatively) move up, and the other down, as well - still circling within the same plane, but opposing forces, nonetheless. Mind you, "opposing" is a relative term here. I could refer to these as "cooperating" forces, as well, since the push up and back on one side makes moving the other down and forward easier, and vice versa.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    A trip fits the "opposing forces" paradigm. The person is moving in one direction, and the stationary foot is the (philosophical) second force. (Speaking in physics terms, the moving leg actually exerts force against the stationary foot.)
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ah, I see your point - you meant (as you said) adding strikes, not just changing to situation to strikes.
     
  6. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Agree! If you train

    - throw, you will take down your opponent all your life.
    - strong rooting, you will be taken down all your life.

    If you train

    - iron palm, you will punch on your opponent all your life.
    - iron shirt, you will be punched all your life.

    The defense skill does not equal to the offense skill.
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    Most don't. I'd say that the Tai Chi practitioner in the second video was setting up a "competition" in order to show off the effectiveness of his art - he was just rigging the competition in his favor.

    (I don't know what the context was for the first video. That looks more like a friendly sharing of experience.)
     
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  8. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The only 1 point contact throw that I can think of is the foot sweep. When your opponent steps in, you sweep his leading leg without upper body pulling force. It only works against beginner and it requires good timing. I have never seen it ever works on the wrestling mat against experienced wrestler yet.
     
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  9. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng Sr. Grandmaster

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    Snake Creeps down Yang Style and Wu Style can be applied as a throw
    So can the transition from Grasp the Sparrow's Tail (Ward Off, Left; Ward Off, Right; Roll Back; Press; Push) to single Whip, but a takedown or Qinna would be easier to do here
    There is another Posture in Northern Wu style that is a pick up and a throw, sorry I cannot remember the name of the posture
    And I believe there is at least 1 throw in Chen, although I would have to check.

    But you are correct in saying there are by far more sweeps, takedowns, pushes that throws. There is also a lot more Qinna than ther are throws in most Taijiquan forms
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'd say even that requires opposing forces - you're just not providing both. The reason it works on beginners and not experienced folks is that the experienced folks learn to remove the second force (either forward momentum or downward force on the swept leg) or to stymie the force you put in (rooted enough to stop a weak sweep). Mind you, that's my interpretation of what I think you're referring to, so your interpretation might be different or I might be talking about something different.
     
  11. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The difference between a beginner and an experienced person is the experienced person can shift weight from one leg to the other leg faster. The foot sweep is the easiest throw that one can escape. All he needs to do is to bend his leg at his knee joint and let the sweeping leg to pass under it. To drop more weight and turn the shin bone into the sweep is another way to counter it. I like the 2nd approach better. I always like to take advantage than just escape. Most of the time when my opponent sweeps me, I can take him down with single leg.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
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  12. Anarax

    Anarax Brown Belt

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    Considering the TC practitioner wasn't sliding around with his shoes on, the shoes have a type of sole that grips the mats to some degree. Are they providing cleat level gripping, probably not, but they still played a factor.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. Sit there defending take downs and you just get punched.
     
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  14. Anarax

    Anarax Brown Belt

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    I took Tai Chi and we had takedowns/throws/sweeps, other Tai Chi styles have them as well. I was responding to Kung Fu Wang's comment on opposing forces by giving examples of takedown/throws/sweeps without without opposing forces. He himself used the Diagonal Fly technique as an example, in which you block the leg. That's in Tai Chi, but yet the block isn't considered an opposing force for that technique. The shoulder twist motion Wang was referring to is a circular technique done with both hands. That's not opposing forces nor does it violate a Tai Chi concept. It seems the term "force" is what's causing some confusion. If you look at the Tai Chi forms with that definition of "force", there's a lot of opposing forces.
     
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  15. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Choke slam.
     
  16. Anarax

    Anarax Brown Belt

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    My examples were based off the same logic though. If I entered a race and lost, everyone could just make the excuse "he was capable of so much more", even though it's a competition and I didn't win. Believing anyone has these amazing dormant skills even though they don't demonstrate it in a "competition" seems presumptuous.
     
  17. Anarax

    Anarax Brown Belt

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    It seems the term "force" for this thread is very loose. I was approaching it from the scientific standpoint, as you did. That's why I asked wang if he considered his example was or wasn't for opposing forces. I took Tai Chi and we didn't use this "philosophical" definition of force.
     
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  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    This remind me one of the hip throw counter "helmet remove" that when your opponent tries to hip throw you, you put your hand on top of his head, pull his head back and take him down.
     
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  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Again, so what?
     
  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok, well, these are your problems. Good luck with them.
     

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