Taekwondo teacher choked student to show off move

[RTKDCMB]

Here's a topic

http://www.theage.com.au/nsw/taekwondo-teacher-choked-student-to-show-off-move-20131209-2z0gr.html

Talk about it.

 

[Gorilla]

Wow....probably not the smartest thing to do.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I wouldn't demonstrate that on a minor for liability reasons, but the reaction of the media and the doctor who was interviewed is completely uninformed. Judging from the video, the instructor applied the choke correctly and safely.

Here is a video of a buddy of mine explaining and demonstrating the effects of chokes.

You'll notice that he allows himself to be choked out as part of the demonstration. Brian is a PhD in exercise science and cites studies showing the safety of what he is doing.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I wouldn't demonstrate that on a minor for liability reasons, but the reaction of the media and the doctor who was interviewed is completely uninformed. Judging from the video, the instructor applied the choke correctly and safely.

Here is a video of a buddy of mine explaining and demonstrating the effects of chokes.

You'll notice that he allows himself to be choked out as part of the demonstration. Brian is a PhD in exercise science and cites studies showing the safety of what he is doing.

Sounds like your buddy really knows what he is doing. The guy in the story I am not as convinced, I don't know if he had any medical supervision. It should not have been done on a 16 year old, I don't see how it would be necessary and certainly not very good publicity for the school. My first thought when reading the story was that it was not such a big deal as it happens every day in MMA, BJJ and Judo etc without causing brain damage but doing it on a child was just stupid.

 

[granfire]

The doctor sounds like a soccer mom, but I do have to agree, using a minor student to demonstrate is unwise on many levels.

And I want to slap the doctor...Martial Arts are by definition designed to kill and maim. A nice skill to have in case of emergency, when Origamy and sculpting in potato salad won't help.


Sheesh!

 

[WMKS Shogun]

"That's exactly what you do when you try and kill someone by hanging, or choker's hold in military sort of combat, so I mean, it's got no place in our normal society," Dr Fulde told 2UE.

From the link.

"Martial arts as a form of exercise is fine but this sort of stuff is designed to kill people and it's not got a place in any way, even as an exercise, in our society."

Also from the link.

There lies the issue. This doctor feels that we have no reason to protect ourselves, that society is civilized and therefore, martial arts should only be exercise. He can do his cardio karate-kickboxing, but I want me and mine to be protected. That means knowing chokes. I feel that the instructor applied the choke about as safely as possible (though I agree with the laying the student flat and think it would be better applied to an adult student, but honestly, a teenager is probably in better health than most adults). I think that as long as care is shown, it is not an issue. The doctor raising a stink about it has his philosophy a bit confused. Society does not ensure that we are safe. Law enforcement agents existence does not negate crime. In many parts of America, LEO's jobs are to solve crimes which have already been committed but they are vague about preventing it. (Not the fault of LEO's, because in the USA, more and more laws are protecting criminals due to "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law"). To feel that because you live in a civilized society you are protected against any/all crime, specifically violence, is to be living in a fantasy. I tell my students "I hope I NEVER have to use any of what I teach you, and I hope you NEVER have to either. Not because it does not work, but because it does and there are terrible consequences to violence." I teach them to talk their way out or walk away when they are able, but to be ready and able to defend themselves when necessary.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Sounds like your buddy really knows what he is doing. The guy in the story I am not as convinced, I don't know if he had any medical supervision. It should not have been done on a 16 year old, I don't see how it would be necessary and certainly not very good publicity for the school. My first thought when reading the story was that it was not such a big deal as it happens every day in MMA, BJJ and Judo etc without causing brain damage but doing it on a child was just stupid.

I agree that it should have been demonstrated on an adult - not so much for safety sake as for liability and appearances. Judging from the video, however, the instructor did know how to apply the choke safely. He did it as a pure blood choke with no pressure on the trachea and he released the student as soon as she went unconscious. The student was in no danger.

 

[msmitht]

Here's a topic

http://www.theage.com.au/nsw/taekwondo-teacher-choked-student-to-show-off-move-20131209-2z0gr.html

Talk about it.

What a complete idiot. You should never demonstrate a rear naked choke to completion and especially not on a child. In bjj training, over the last 13 years, I have slipped out of consciousness a few times. Most were when I was trying to escape and didn't want to tap. A few I never saw coming. Not something that needs to be demonstrated like that. What was that idiot trying to prove? I can see kids seeing this and trying it on each other. No good can come from this. Video should be taken down.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I remember this documentary movie, where the martial artist talks about the teacher choking out a student.

 

[rlobrecht]

The parents were present, had given prior permission, and were told what to expect.

In general, my gut reaction is the same as all of you, you should never demonstrate to unconsciousness, and you shouldn't do this kind of demonstration on a child. However, I can imagine that there were things from the story left out.

Why was this being demonstrated? Had a student been attacked, and couldn't recover from this kind of choking? What's the other side, the non-evil side, of the story.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Why was this being demonstrated?

Exactly. What exactly is the point? To show that you can pass out in 5 seconds? To show how to do the choke efficiently? None of that is clear to me. The context seems to have been made clear to everyone before the video started, since the parents agreed and video taped it.

To me, the exercise was done very safely, but I would never recommend it due to the optics. If someone were to walk in the studio with their little Johnny who wanted to try martial arts, the parent and little Johnny would likely run away. And of course, once the media hears that the black belt master choked out a 16 year female student.....oh, you could guess ahead of time that it wouldn't play out well.

 

[K-man]

Doctors shocked by video of a Taekwondo instructor demonstrating a potentially lethal 'sleeper hold' on a teenage student.

For a start the press is peddling moral outrage to promote their case. Sure it's potentially lethal but so are any of the illicit drugs people take.


A senior Sydney medical expert has blasted as "evil" the actions of a taekwondo instructor who was filmed choking one of his teenage students until she fell unconscious in front of a class to demonstrate a martial arts manoeuvre.


St Vincent's Hospital's emergency department director, Gordian Fulde, said the 16-year-old student could have suffered brain damage, or even died, when instructor Michael Landas applied pressure to her neck in an action Dr Fulde likened to that of a noose.

Nothing like a noose. Hanging is designed to break the neck. Strangulation by hanging cuts off the air. Either the doctor was being over dramatic or he was misquoted which happens frequently when sub editors get involved.



She was in some danger because if something went wrong, he kept holding her up, he didn't even put her down when she lost consciousness, and ... it's evil

Dramatic rhetoric. 'Some' and 'if' being the operative words.


Crystal is shown sitting on the ground with her arm raised in the air, and Mr Landas explains that as he tightens his grip around her neck, she will fall unconscious and her arm will drop.

I have heard of this exercise being demonstrated like this before and from memory it might have been in a DVD I have.



Crystal and her parents had given permission for Mr Landas to perform the manoeuvre, with Crystal telling Channel Seven that it was "not dangerous at all. Only if held for too long."

Perhaps this could be classed as 'uninformed' consent. Crystal is right in what she says but IMHO parental permission should not have been given.



Her mother even filmed the stunt, telling Channel Seven: "No, well it wasn't disturbing because I knew what was going to happen."

Well at least she would have had evidence if things did go wrong. Smart woman!



But Dr Fulde said Crystal was in danger because the blood and oxygen supply to her brain had been cut off.

We probably all feel their was very little risk in this case with a healthy young person.



"That's exactly what you do when you try and kill someone by hanging, or choker's hold in military sort of combat, so I mean, it's got no place in our normal society," Dr Fulde told 2UE.

Perhaps someone should explain to the doctor the reasons behind MA training.


He said anyone trained in first aid would know to lower an unconscious person immediately to the ground, but Mr Landas kept her sitting up.

Under normal circumstances yes. However if the airway is open I'm not sure that in this case it was required as you no that consciousness will return very quickly.



"I think the majority of martial arts and personal trainers wouldn't touch this with a bar of soap, but I mean, there's no reason for it at all. It's a manoeuvre trained to render somebody unconscious and to kill people," he said.

Why would a personal trainer be teaching a rear naked choke? And of course it is to render people unconscious. Why else would it be done? Poor reporting.



"It does two things. It cuts off the blood supply and the air supply to your brain, and that's why they become unconscious ... and that's brain death.

Once again, demonstrably false. It is not brain death, it is loss of consciousness. If the doctor actually said that he should not be in charge of ER. He would be sending a lot of perfectly healthy patients off as organ donors if he was actually practising what he is claiming.



"Martial arts as a form of exercise is fine but this sort of stuff is designed to kill people and it's not got a place in any way, even as an exercise, in our society."

I think this demonstrates his total lack of understanding of the martial arts. Apart from the exercise form of Tai Chi I think most people learn martial arts for some degree of self defence. There are many more efficient ways to exercise.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/taekwondo...ow-off-move-20131209-2z0gr.html#ixzz2n0YaDiVH

There lies the issue. This doctor feels that we have no reason to protect ourselves, that society is civilized and therefore, martial arts should only be exercise.

I think you have to take this in an Australian context. We don't have the same expectation of violence that you have.

He can do his cardio karate-kickboxing, but I want me and mine to be protected. That means knowing chokes. I feel that the instructor applied the choke about as safely as possible (though I agree with the laying the student flat and think it would be better applied to an adult student, but honestly, a teenager is probably in better health than most adults). I think that as long as care is shown, it is not an issue.

It is an issue because it casts TKD and by association other MAs in a bad light. We can do without negative publicity. It was a dumb thing to do.

The doctor raising a stink about it has his philosophy a bit confused. Society does not ensure that we are safe. Law enforcement agents existence does not negate crime. In many parts of America, LEO's jobs are to solve crimes which have already been committed but they are vague about preventing it. (Not the fault of LEO's, because in the USA, more and more laws are protecting criminals due to "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law").

Herein is the truth. It is not America and the culture here, in Australia, is quite different. We do expect our police to protect us even though technically it is not their job.

To feel that because you live in a civilized society you are protected against any/all crime, specifically violence, is to be living in a fantasy. I tell my students "I hope I NEVER have to use any of what I teach you, and I hope you NEVER have to either. Not because it does not work, but because it does and there are terrible consequences to violence." I teach them to talk their way out or walk away when they are able, but to be ready and able to defend themselves when necessary.

Advice that we all should give.

It was a thoughtless thing to do. Performed in all innocence but with no thought of consequence.
:asian:

 

[WaterGal]

Going that far with it seems stupid to me. I would not do that. Putting a student in a choke until they feel it - sure. They need to know what it feels like if they're going to be doing it to anyone else. But not doing it to the point of them actually going unconcious. I'm not saying this guy is a bad guy or anything, but it seems thoughtless to me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Going that far with it seems stupid to me. I would not do that. Putting a student in a choke until they feel it - sure. They need to know what it feels like if they're going to be doing it to anyone else. But not doing it to the point of them actually going unconcious. I'm not saying this guy is a bad guy or anything, but it seems thoughtless to me.

Gosh, you guys are serious, aren't you?

 

[Earl Weiss]

Agreed, not the smartest on a minor but I don't think I have ever done it to someone in training or teaching without letting them tap. Another way to do it is to have them raise a hand while you demo it and stop as soon as the hand starts to drop.

But, I disagree with the doctor;

How many serious injuries followed a caratoid choke in MMA (As opposed to a choke on the windpipe applied in other encounters?)

How would the same Doctor feel about teaching people to:

Punch each other

Kick each other

Appy arm bars Knee bars etc.

Also, from a medical perspective what the doctor suggests is SOP, but from the MMA perspective the seated resuscitation has been tried and true for decades.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Using a minor, especially a girl, was foolish, but this wasn't evil by any rationale definition.

The Dr they quoted is also displaying a shocking level of ignorance.

When you hang someone, the goal is to break their neck, not choke them out.

The purpose of laying someone down when they're unconscious is to open their airway and prevent them from injuring themselves in a fall - both of which are also accomplished by holding her the way he did.

Overall, I'd say that (other than the choice of partner) this was not a particularly dangerous demonstration. I'd certainly be less concerned with her safety than, say, this kid.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

Overall, I'd say that (other than the choice of partner) this was not a particularly dangerous demonstration. I'd certainly be less concerned with her safety than, say, this kid.

Funny, I was talking to the winner of that match about a month ago at a sporting goods store while he was working. (I had recognised him from a time when he popped into the school where I was training). Although his friends in the video seem to think a KO from a head kick is a great thing, he was very humble and enjoyed talking about the sport and martial art aspect. Nice teenage kid.

 

[msmitht]

Two completely different things. A competitor has the opportunity to fight back and all involved know the risks. The mother may have consented and fully understood the risks but why use a child? Why not use an adult? For that matter why is a tkd instructor teaching a rear naked choke to anyone? It is definitely not in the kkw/ITF curriculum. Was he CPR certified? Was there a doctor present?
I still say it was a foolish thing to do and no bjj black belt that I know, and I know a lot of them, would ever do that to any student as a part of a demonstration. I sent the link to a few Gracie family members I personally know and they all said the same thing:"why did he do that?"

 

[Earl Weiss]

For that matter why is a tkd instructor teaching a rear naked choke to anyone? It is definitely not in the kkw/ITF curriculum. "

Not sure I get your point. Do we have detailed info on this person's background?

The USTF might be viewed as "TKD org." but it's curriculum includes chokes.

 

[Instructor]

Tae Kwon Do is a martial art and has defenses against choking attacks the same as many other martial arts.