Taekwondo: Out of the Olympic Games after Brazil 2016?

[ralphmcpherson]

Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone’s hero, so my comments seem “mean” and “not nice”, I understand. See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him “my hero” and even stated “you love his hair” on another post, but let’s get past that and consider his actions as a martial artist and consider why his actions in that horrible highlight clip that you first posted -- and that you have been posting all over other boards -- should not impress you or others.

I have been around and spent considerable time with the world’s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo’s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent. It’s morally the right thing to do. However, when face with a worthy opponent; they will perform at their maximum ability, killer instinct and all. As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.

UPHOLDING THE SPIRIT AND TRADITIONS OF MARTIAL ARTS?

It’s appalling to see practitioners, especially those who like to think they are teachers, who support the show boating abuse of unskilled novice practitioners by an egotistical and arrogant skilled fighter, and his coach. Especially from those here who profess they, or their instructor/organization are the torch bearers of so-called traditional or some early form of Taekwondo and its philosophies, expounding that they are defenders of the weak with their non-sport self-defense teachings and are honoring the pioneers who came before them.

Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout. But I am more disappointed in ETinCYQX's coach. This negative attitude, fueled by a dysfunctional relationship between a coach/trainer/instructor/manager of the fighter is at the root of the problem that turns novice practitioners against intense martial arts competition. The bottom line is that at some point they felt bullied, or saw others of low skills face this bully attitude in the ring. So they run and hide behind the faux self-defense only/non-sport moniker. As for the fighter, we can see what happens if they do make it big on the international Taekwondo scene. They damage the sport, like Matos of Cuba, kicking the referee.

THE BULLIED BECOMES THE BULLY

These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life. I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision: that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop). These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out. In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate. This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago. They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it’s destructive. We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well. Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.

Learning about the self and overcoming these destructive internal emotional obstacles, the very thing that martial arts was supposed to do, never happened. What happened here is that the martial arts, taught and presented the wrong way, from a series of wrong teachers, pulled the practitioner deeper into an abyss of suffering. The very suffering that Buddha, Confucius, and Lao Tzu taught against.
Does all this apply to any of you? Maybe not. But if you feel it might, you should work to resolve it and not spread the disease to others.

So you think I am mean and not nice? Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.

Im still trying to get past the bit where you said -"As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before". Have you actually watched much boxing?, its a miss-match-athon. Go back and watch all of tyson's early fights, he nearly killed those poor blokes who were light years from his standard. What about the new zealand title fight coming up soon, sonny bill williams (pro boxer, pro league player, pro union player, bulit like a tonne of bricks) and he's fighting some no-name who doesnt even box full time. Ok, now to go back and try reading the rest.

 

[mastercole]

Im still trying to get past the bit where you said -"As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before". Have you actually watched much boxing?, its a miss-match-athon. Go back and watch all of tyson's early fights, he nearly killed those poor blokes who were light years from his standard. What about the new zealand title fight coming up soon, sonny bill williams (pro boxer, pro league player, pro union player, bulit like a tonne of bricks) and he's fighting some no-name who doesnt even box full time. Ok, now to go back and try reading the rest.

Some do, go back and read the part where I said "rarely".

 

[ralphmcpherson]

You're quoting me out of context to prove your point, as well as denigrating me, my instructor, my training AND my students. Neither of which you know. To put it kindly, stuff it.

For the record my name is Ethan Terris. I started training with Mr. Raymond Bennett in 1997 under Grandmaster Jung Soo Park. Circa 2000 my training moved to Mr. Chad Nippard under Grandmaster Woo Young Jung and the Kukkiwon, then to Master T. Nippard under same before I took a break for around 6 years in 2003. I returned in 2009 as a 1st kup under Mr. Sam Lee and I was promoted to first degree black belt in June 2011 by Master Nippard. Currently I run Terris' Taekwondo in Gander, Newfoundland for Master Nippard. Now you know who I am, who teaches me, who has ever taught me and who gave me my black belt. These people all think I am a worthy martial artist and they've known me personally since literally before I was old enough to remember.

I have read enough of your posts here to know you are a worthy martial artist Ethan. What was said about you, your instructors and peers in the above post was way ot of line. Take no notice of him, Im sure your students and school are a credit to you. No one deserves such a blatant attempt at humiliation as what was just aimed at you.

 

[SPX]

Sure, I point out a glaring flaw in someone’s hero, so my comments seem “mean” and “not nice”, I understand.

No, I think that having a knee-jerk reaction to a highlight video in which you don't know the full circumstances, of a man whom you've never met, berating not only him, but also his coach, and the entire sport of kickboxing, makes your comments "mean" and "not nice."

See, I know that you admire him, greatly. You call him “my hero”. . .

Well, he IS pretty awesome.

. . .and even stated “you love his hair” on another post. . .

Well, ironically at least.

. . . and that you have been posting all over other boards. . .

I'm guilty of this. You know, gotta spread the word about this gem of a TKDist-turned-kickboxer.

I have been around and spent considerable time with the world’s most elite Taekwondo champions (including Steven), their instructors, trainers and coaches, form all different decades of Taekwondo’s existence, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that the majority, if not all temper their fight when faced with a drastically under skilled opponent. It’s morally the right thing to do.

And so what happens when one of these elite Taekwondo champions goes easy and ends up getting knocked out in a very important match with 10 seconds to go in the last round when he could've finished the fight in two minutes? Is that just the price you pay for doing the "morally right thing?"

I'll be honest with you, I think you're attitude--while perhaps well-intentioned--is rather bizarre. I've never had heard any legit fighter in any combat sport say that it's a virtue to not fight to the best of their ability. Whoever stands before you is a threat. When it's two guys in a ring, their job is to fight. Afterward they winner can buy the loser a beer, but in the ring, it's time to put everything on the line.

As for boxing, elite boxers rarely run into this situation, they are usually paired up against other elite boxers, not novices that have never been in the ring before.

There would be some truth here if we were talking about MMA, but boxing? Boxing is all about feeding a prospect 30 cans and then giving him a title shot.

Of greater concern to me is the statements of ETinCYQX, who claims to be an actual fighter (winning the last match 7-2?), and feels that it does not matter if your opponent is way out of their league and unskilled, you use the killer instinct and go for the knockout.

I think it's that only in your world is it wrong to go for a knockout in a sport that rewards knockouts with instant victory.

These persons who were fixated on self-defense did so because of earlier bullying in their life or some other form of bulling or abuse they saw or experience that made it a major concern in their life. I know, for a large part of my early martial arts training, I was this type of person so I can see it now, clearly in others. The crux of these phenomena is that many times, these concerned practitioners never fully confront their fear, frustration, hate, anger, jealousy and indecision: that crippling failure that prevents them from turning choice into action quickly - seamlessly (called by some as OODA Loop). These scared emotions can build inside these individuals, and their like-minded associations, like a cancer and destroy them from the inside out. In an attempt to continue the now defunct like-minded group, they form a new one, with a new name and a new story of hate. This cycle of suffering destroys their original motive and the cycle continues, leaving a trail of dead-defunct groups, xyz, abc, efg, etc organizations. They can no longer clearly see the way to their own personal salvation from this seed of abuse that was planted long ago. They end up cheering on the bully, if not being the bully themselves because deep down inside they want to be something greater, or at least, a part of it, even if it’s destructive. We can see this in those who thanked ETinCYQX for his "go for the knockout/killer instinct" comment. This suffering manifest in other areas of peoples lives as well. Failure at forming healthy relationships with family, failing to find a wife, feeling unworthy to teach your students, living at home with mom, etc.

This seems interesting, but to be honest I'm not really sure what you said here.

So you think I am mean and not nice? Good. At least I got your attention and gave you something real to think about for the next 40 years other than that horrible example of a video that shows us what not to be.

Teacher: "Hey little Johnny, what do you want to be when you grow up?"
Little Johnny: "Steve Vick!!!"

:bangahead:

 

[ETinCYQX]

I have read enough of your posts here to know you are a worthy martial artist Ethan. What was said about you, your instructors and peers in the above post was way ot of line. Take no notice of him, Im sure your students and school are a credit to you. No one deserves such a blatant attempt at humiliation as what was just aimed at you.

Thank you, sir, I appreciate the support.

 

[mastercole]

You're quoting me out of context to prove your point, as well as denigrating me, my instructor, my training AND my students. Neither of which you know. To put it kindly, stuff it.

For the record my name is Ethan Terris. I started training with Mr. Raymond Bennett in 1997 under Grandmaster Jung Soo Park. Circa 2000 my training moved to Mr. Chad Nippard under Grandmaster Woo Young Jung and the Kukkiwon, then to Master T. Nippard under same before I took a break for around 6 years in 2003. I returned in 2009 as a 1st kup under Mr. Sam Lee and I was promoted to first degree black belt in June 2011 by Master Nippard. Currently I run Terris' Taekwondo in Gander, Newfoundland for Master Nippard. Now you know who I am, who teaches me, who has ever taught me and who gave me my black belt. These people all think I am a worthy martial artist and they've known me personally since literally before I was old enough to remember.

Good, then let them read my post and know that I am disappointed in your disregard for a novice practitioner, and let them also know that if they support that kind of destructive attitude, I am disappointed in them, and their teachers as well. Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Good, then let them read my post and know that I am disappointed in your disregard for a novice practitioner, and let them also know that if they support that kind of destructive attitude, I am disappointed in them, and their teachers as well. Al Cole - Cleveland, Ohio.

So lets get this straight. The Iraqi Olympic team member is a novice practitioner? He's the only person I talked about aside from a theoretical adult black belt division opponent.

You're free to tell GM Park, GM Jung, Either of the two Nippard's or Master Bennett you're disappointed in them. I'd venture a guess they'll ask the same thing I did-who's this guy think he is?-and proceed to pretend to listen since they're more worried about tact then I am.

 

[mastercole]

So lets get this straight. The Iraqi Olympic team member is a novice practitioner? He's the only person I talked about aside from a theoretical adult black belt division opponent.

Go back and read the thread. It was about Steve Vick beating down totally novice practitioners. I used Steven Lopez's match against the Iraqi player as an example, that even elite fighters back off on out classed opponents.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Go back and read the thread. It was about Steve Vick beating down totally novice practitioners. I used Steven Lopez's match against the Iraqi player as an example, that even elite fighters back off on out classed opponents.

I didn't say anything about Mr. Vick, my comment was directly related to the Olympic event. You replied with half a page about how me, my students, 3 of the pioneers of Canadian Taekwondo and everyone who doesn't agree with me aren't martial artists.

Either way, my opinion applies to Vick too.

 

[mastercole]

I didn't say anything about Mr. Vick, my comment was directly related to the Olympic event. You replied with half a page about how me, my students, 3 of the pioneers of Canadian Taekwondo and everyone who doesn't agree with me aren't martial artists.

Either way, my opinion applies to Vick too.

There you have it then. You are who you are, and your teachers are who they are. To each his own.

 

[SPX]

By the way, I'd just like to say that, as a very recent convert to KKW TKD, I'm itching to get in there and separate some dudes from consciousness.

If that makes me a bad person, then I dunno, feel free to tell on me to my mom or something.

 

[ETinCYQX]

I hope you understand I had to respond to what I consider uncalled for personal attacks and I don't harbour a grudge.

 

[mastercole]

I hope you understand I had to respond to what I consider uncalled for personal attacks and I don't harbour a grudge.

Personally I don't see any grudges at all.

I was pointing out that for anyone to support and cheer on the dangerous injury and abuse of novice, un-experienced practitioners by fighters with good skills, is ethically wrong, and very wrong according to what Taekwondo teaches.

Elite fighter vs, elite fighters, they should go for it, knockout wins. That's what we all signed up for. But that does not mean we did not sign away our moral responsibility to those behind us in the journey.

 

[mastercole]

By the way, I'd just like to say that, as a very recent convert to KKW TKD, I'm itching to get in there and separate some dudes from consciousness.

If that makes me a bad person, then I dunno, feel free to tell on me to my mom or something.

If you meet a player of similar skill, go for it, that's fair. But if you encounter someone who can not lay a foot or hand on you and you out class them in skill by a long shot, it is ethically wrong of you to attempt to seriously harm them, according to not just to Taekwondo, but many other principle philosophies and religions.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Keep in mind that Steve Vick was fighting other professional kickboxers within his weight class. Ergo, they signed up for the same thing. That's what the belts were originally for, to tell who was where in the journey.

 

[mastercole]

Keep in mind that Steve Vick was fighting other professional kickboxers within his weight class. Ergo, they signed up for the same thing. That's what the belts were originally for, to tell who was where in the journey.

Those fights were not the fights I was talking about. See the first video SPX posted. The highlights, then tell me what you think.

 

[mastercole]

Good stuff. Really like that ITF vid. Though to be fair, you compared a highlight to a full match which isn't really an accurate comparison.

Something like this Steve Vick vid that I posted the other day might be a bit better to represent the WTF:

This video

 

[SPX]

If you meet a player of similar skill, go for it, that's fair. But if you encounter someone who can not lay a foot or hand on you and you out class them in skill by a long shot, it is ethically wrong of you to attempt to seriously harm them, according to not just to Taekwondo, but many other principle philosophies and religions.

I'm still not clear on how I'm supposed to know what their skill level is. Unless you know the person, it's just some random guy. I mean, are you suggesting I give it a few minutes to feel them out before flipping the switch and going full blast? Just makes no sense to me.

 

[mastercole]

I'm still not clear on how I'm supposed to know what their skill level is. Unless you know the person, it's just some random guy. I mean, are you suggesting I give it a few minutes to feel them out before flipping the switch and going full blast? Just makes no sense to me.

If you can not tell that you out class your opponent are are completely dominating them, they your coach should know, and advise you accordingly. Ask your coach about this question.

 

[ETinCYQX]

Sure. I saw Steve score a bunch of knockouts, typical for a highlight reel. I didn't notice any blatant mismatches to be honest, I noticed all of his opponents were similarly sized black belts, and I didn't even see Steve celebrate his wins. I saw him stop kicking and walk out of the frame.

If you're referring to the clips where his opponents are backing away from him, that happens. Even Steven Lopez, Aaron Cook, whoever gets caught and starts backpedaling. Doesn't mean anything other than they got caught and panicked.