Taekwondo Forms Pacing and Rhythm

[Gerry Seymour]

In my personal practice, I like to change up the rhythms in different ways, to focus on different things. Sometimes I slow everything down, sometimes I speed everything up. Sometimes I will swap and make the quick moves slow and the slow moves fast. Sometimes just randomly adjusting the rhythm as I go.

Sometimes, I focus on the stances, so I will make each move individually and hold it. Other times I want to work on the transitions between the stances, so I spend less time in the stances and more time in the stepping. By randomly messing with the rhythm, I can find out which transitions I can do quickly, which I have better balance in and really identify problem areas.

In class, I do the rhythm given. In my personal practice outside of class... I play and learn.

My classes have always been small, so we rarely do the forms together. I like to let each person work on what they need to in the form. Of course, you can't do that if you have more than a very few people, unless the room is huge. I'm hoping at the new place to have that problem.

 

[dvcochran]

I think that's useful, and I've also seen it cause stutters and pauses outside the form. I like to let natural pauses happen, and sometimes I like to force where the pauses are (which causes the linking between pauses, like @Kung Fu Wang is talking about). It's useful to practice linking and flowing at times, to ensure the body/brain isn't trained into creating pauses it doesn't actually need.

I cannot speak to @skribs classes, but with the exception of the three Kicho and first three Taeguek poomsae the TKD forms I know, Pyong An, Palgwae, Taekgueks 4-8, and Kukkiwon BB forms do not follow a hard, totally repetitive candence. They are not at all robotic start/stop and while there are many singular moves, there are also many flowing move sequences.

 

[skribs]

I cannot speak to @skribs classes, but with the exception of the three Kicho and first three Taeguek poomsae the TKD forms I know, Pyong An, Palgwae, Taekgueks 4-8, and Kukkiwon BB forms do not follow a hard, totally repetitive candence. They are not at all robotic start/stop and while there are many singular moves, there are also many flowing move sequences.

The higher forms in our school do have some combinations, yes. But they are still very short sentences compared to a Kung Fu form, for example.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The higher forms in our school do have some combinations, yes. But they are still very short sentences compared to a Kung Fu form, for example.

To create a 20 moves combo form is a challenges task.

- Move 1 can set up move 2.
- Move 2 can set up move 3.
- ...
- Move 19 can set up move 20.

This is why the 2 men form is hard to come by.

 

[skribs]

To create a 20 moves combo form is a challenges task.

- Move 1 can set up move 2.
- Move 2 can set up move 3.
- ...
- Move 19 can set up move 20.

This is why the 2 men form is hard to come by.

What is a 2 men form?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What is a 2 men form?

A form is designed in such a way that the first 1/2 of the form can match with the 2nd 1/2 of the form.

 

[skribs]

I was having a conversation with one of the adult orange belts from my school. He said his favorite part of TKD is the forms, because pausing at each step tells his body exactly what it feels. He said that the "snapshot" shows him where his body should be in order to get the full power into the technique.

One of the forms he's learning has one line where you start in a back stance and block, then turn into front stance and punch. Then step forward and block in back stance, and shift to front stance and punch. This part of the form has a bit of a different cadence from the previous forms (instead of 1-2-3-4 it's more like 1e--2e--3e--4e-- (with a short pause after the block and a normal pause after the punch). He says that the rhythm and timing of hit helps him understand how the block works, how to deliver the block with power, and how to shift in order to punch with power.

The conversation made me think of this thread, and how the rhythm is an effective teaching tool.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was having a conversation with one of the adult orange belts from my school. He said his favorite part of TKD is the forms, because pausing at each step tells his body exactly what it feels. He said that the "snapshot" shows him where his body should be in order to get the full power into the technique.

He's correct, and this is one reason why TKD forms are done in this controlled, move-pause fashion.
Speed hides slop. I can throw a punch or a kick full speed, and the instructor or judge won't really be able to see the details. Did I have a tight fist? Was my foot positioned for the right contact area? Did I full extend the kick? And so on.
Forms are a teaching tool. Therefore, it's a good idea to do them in a way that helps the teacher to help the student.

 

[skribs]

He's correct, and this is one reason why TKD forms are done in this controlled, move-pause fashion.
Speed hides slop. I can throw a punch or a kick full speed, and the instructor or judge won't really be able to see the details. Did I have a tight fist? Was my foot positioned for the right contact area? Did I full extend the kick? And so on.
Forms are a teaching tool. Therefore, it's a good idea to do them in a way that helps the teacher to help the student.

I mean, I understand the points of doing forms with flow, or doing forms at speed, like other arts do.

But it is nice to hear that someone appreciates this way as well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I mean, I understand the points of doing forms with flow, or doing forms at speed, like other arts do.

But it is nice to hear that someone appreciates this way as well.

In case I wasn't clear earlier, I think best use of forms involves both. I have students put stops where they serve for teaching, and remove them to practice flow. Which is more important probably depends how you use them, and how they fit into your teaching.

 

[paitingman]

When does your school practice more continuous and rapid movement of these particular techniques?

My school always taught forms in "move-pause" and then an uncounted "own count" pace, but still with slight pauses after most techniques.

We did however perform them rapidly and continuously as part of our One Steps, Two Steps, and Three Steps training.
Though those were also practiced in a "move-pause" manner.

How did your school do this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think best use of forms involves both.

This concern has bothered me for many years.

The hip throw

- training is to spin the body (your opponent can spin with you and drag you down).
- application is to cut in through an angle without body spinning.

For many years, I could not decide whether I should train with "body spinning", or "cut in through an angle", or both. One day suddenly everything started to be clear in my mind. My life time is too short. I can't afford to waste it. To be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is always a better idea.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This concern has bothered me for many years.

The hip throw

- training is to spin the body (your opponent can spin with you and drag you down).
- application is to cut in through an angle without body spinning.

For many years, I could not decide whether I should train with "body spinning", or "cut in through an angle", or both. One day suddenly everything started to be clear in my mind. My life time is too short. I can't afford to waste it. To be able to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is always a better idea.

I know of applications that use both entries (assuming I'm understanding your "spin the body" entry).

My view is that we can train a number of entries, then look at how to link those to a number of techniques. So, if I have 10 entries and 10 techniques, if each technique links to 5 different entries (none will link to all of them), then I have 50 variations from those 10 + 10.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I know of applications that use both entries (assuming I'm understanding your "spin the body" entry).

My view is that we can train a number of entries, then look at how to link those to a number of techniques. So, if I have 10 entries and 10 techniques, if each technique links to 5 different entries (none will link to all of them), then I have 50 variations from those 10 + 10.

I like to make everything simple. In today's class, we use 1 entering strategy "hook punch" to set up the following throws:

- single leg,
- inner hook,
- leg spring,
- hip throw,
- leg block,
- outer twist,
- downward shoulder pull,
- leg spring, single leg.

IMO, to learn the throwing skill from entering strategy may be the best approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I like to make everything simple. In today's class, we use 1 entering strategy "hook punch" to set up the following throws:

- single leg,
- inner hook,
- leg spring,
- hip throw,
- leg block,
- outer twist,
- downward shoulder pull,
- leg spring, single leg.

IMO, to learn the throwing skill from entering strategy may be the best approach.

Yes. That's the concept I'm getting at. It means that students are learning to find the throws rather than having to manufacture them. They start an entry (10 possible throws to result), there's a response to the entry (5 possible throws left), and they just flow into whichever of the remaining options comes to them first. This approach also helps teach when NOT to do techniques: if the number of options drops to zero, it's time to do something different (continue with a combination of strikes, exit, etc.).