Finally understand the critique I've been getting for the last 3 years

[skribs]

For the last 3 years, every time we're working on back kicks, I've gotten a critique from my Master that I'm not bringing my knee up high enough. I couldn't really figure out why I was supposed to bring my knee up higher until just recently. Now I've made a break-through, but I have to retrain myself in both muscle memory and accuracy to make this effective.

To elaborate on what I mean, this is how I used to do a back kick: Bring my foot up to my knee (as in crane stance) and kick the foot straight back, with my knee pointing away from my target the entire time. My Master kept telling me to bring my knee up higher in the chamber, but the way I was kicking, it actually hurt the kick.

Bringing my knee up higher on a front kick makes sense, because I'm kicking away from my body. But if I brought me knee into my chest on a back kick, now my body is in the way of the kick. (At least, that's how I saw it).

We also got criticized for bringing our shoulder around or bringing our leg up to the side, that we should be doing a back kick instead of a turning side kick.

Well, I didn't think too much of it at the time. I was just happy I wasn't doing a turning side kick. But in class on Friday, I realized that while my foot need to go straight back, my knee could rotate out a little bit, and I am not giving up what the back kick is. I tried it on BOB a few times and one of the other black belts (ironically with the same name as me) was like "wow, nice kick!"

Already, I've found this new method of kicking:

• Is easier to kick around guards
• Is easier to kick at an appropriate height for Taekwondo
• Is easier to hit with the heel instead of the ball of the foot (which is what was happening)
• Fits with the spin motion better
• Delivers better power into the target

And that's while I'm working out the muscle memory! I'm just really glad I was able to finally figure out what my Master has been trying to tell me for a long time. Normally I'm pretty quick on the uptake, but every once in a while I can miss a meaning, and I'm glad this one finally caught up to me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Your concern is the same as "Should you always punch from the waist, or should you punch from wherever you can?"

We all know that a maximum compressing can generate the maximum releasing. But most of the time, you don't have the luxury for that maximum compression.

The question is should you train as the way you will fight?

 

[skribs]

Your concern is the same as "Should you always punch from the waist, or should you punch from wherever you can?"

We all know that a maximum compression can generate the maximum releasing. But most of the time, you don't have the luxury for that maximum compression.

The question is should you train as the way you will fight?

No, my concern here is the way I've been doing it the past 3 years is inferior in virtually every way.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

No, my concern here is the way I've been doing it the past 3 years is inferior in virtually every way.

Are you talking about whether you should bring your knee up higher in the chamber to do a back kick? IMO, most of the time, you don't have the luxury to complete your "full compression".

The following clip is a good example. his punch takes about 1 second to complete. In fighting, you may have 1/4 second. You won't have that 1 second.

A fully chambered kick may take too much time to deliver.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Congratulations on the breakthrough ! I've been working on my own back kick for some time and would like to see a few examples of yours if you would care to share.

The area I am working on has more to do with speed of the kick and accuracy. Been working on a tighter turn and the coordination of looking back as I strike. It's a work in progress.....

 

[skribs]

Are you talking about whether you should bring your knee up higher in the chamber to do a back kick? IMO, most of the time, you don't have the luxury to complete your "full compression".

The following clip is a good example. his punch takes about 1 second to complete. In fighting, you may have 1/4 second. You won't have that 1 second.

A fully chambered kick may take too much time to deliver.

It's the mechanics of the kick, regardless of whether I have time to chamber or not.

Congratulations on the breakthrough ! I've been working on my own back kick for some time and would like to see a few examples of yours if you would care to share.

The area I am working on has more to do with speed of the kick and accuracy. Been working on a tighter turn and the coordination of looking back as I strike. It's a work in progress.....

I'll say that aside from specific critiques by your master, about the best resource I can recommend is Ginger Ninja Trickster. He has lots of videos on kicks and how to perform them, and how to troubleshoot issues you have in doing them correctly. If I get a chance I'll do a video on what I'm talking about.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The question is should you train as the way you will fight?

Before that question can be answered first we would need to answer some other questions. 1. Is "Fight" sparring or combat. 2. If Combat is it prioritized for a single or multiple opponents or both. 3. Can we only train a single method or can we train multiple methods to suit different purposes or situation?

 

[Flying Crane]

The question is should you train as the way you will fight?

The answer is yes, but I don’t think it means what a lot of people think it means.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

3. Can we only train a single method or can we train multiple methods to suit different purposes or situation?

A principle can be mapped into many different techniques. The question is when you train, are you training principle, or are you training technique? IMO, you train principle in your mind, but you train technique on your body.

For example, when you train side kick, spin back fist combo, in your

- mind, you are training to "use kick to set up a punch" principle.
- body, you are training to "side kick, spin back fist" technique.

 

[skribs]

Edit: whoops, wrong thread.

 

[dvcochran]

For the last 3 years, every time we're working on back kicks, I've gotten a critique from my Master that I'm not bringing my knee up high enough. I couldn't really figure out why I was supposed to bring my knee up higher until just recently. Now I've made a break-through, but I have to retrain myself in both muscle memory and accuracy to make this effective.

To elaborate on what I mean, this is how I used to do a back kick: Bring my foot up to my knee (as in crane stance) and kick the foot straight back, with my knee pointing away from my target the entire time. My Master kept telling me to bring my knee up higher in the chamber, but the way I was kicking, it actually hurt the kick.

Bringing my knee up higher on a front kick makes sense, because I'm kicking away from my body. But if I brought me knee into my chest on a back kick, now my body is in the way of the kick. (At least, that's how I saw it).

We also got criticized for bringing our shoulder around or bringing our leg up to the side, that we should be doing a back kick instead of a turning side kick.

Well, I didn't think too much of it at the time. I was just happy I wasn't doing a turning side kick. But in class on Friday, I realized that while my foot need to go straight back, my knee could rotate out a little bit, and I am not giving up what the back kick is. I tried it on BOB a few times and one of the other black belts (ironically with the same name as me) was like "wow, nice kick!"

Already, I've found this new method of kicking:

• Is easier to kick around guards
• Is easier to kick at an appropriate height for Taekwondo
• Is easier to hit with the heel instead of the ball of the foot (which is what was happening)
• Fits with the spin motion better
• Delivers better power into the target

And that's while I'm working out the muscle memory! I'm just really glad I was able to finally figure out what my Master has been trying to tell me for a long time. Normally I'm pretty quick on the uptake, but every once in a while I can miss a meaning, and I'm glad this one finally caught up to me.

Isn't it amazing how hard our body will fight our mind? I don't how many times I have been taught how do perform a technique or corrected in class only to revert to what I was doing prior. I think it is the way we are wired and why repetition is so important. Practice does not make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. FWIW, mirrors are the best training tool in the Dojang. Watching someone perform a technique while I do it along with them gives my the whole visual image of what the technique should look like.

 

[skribs]

Isn't it amazing how hard our body will fight our mind? I don't how many times I have been taught how do perform a technique or corrected in class only to revert to what I was doing prior. I think it is the way we are wired and why repetition is so important. Practice does not make perfect; perfect practice makes perfect. FWIW, mirrors are the best training tool in the Dojang. Watching someone perform a technique while I do it along with them gives my the whole visual image of what the technique should look like.

You still have to know what to look for to know what you're doing different.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Are you talking about whether you should bring your knee up higher in the chamber to do a back kick? IMO, most of the time, you don't have the luxury to complete your "full compression".

The following clip is a good example. his punch takes about 1 second to complete. In fighting, you may have 1/4 second. You won't have that 1 second.

A fully chambered kick may take too much time to deliver.

It sounds like his lower knee position was a symptom of the mechanics (it was as high as his mechanics would reasonably allow), and now he's talking about a different approach that would actually make that higher chamber useful when it's possible.

 

[CB Jones]

Are you talking about whether you should bring your knee up higher in the chamber to do a back kick? IMO, most of the time, you don't have the luxury to complete your "full compression".

The following clip is a good example. his punch takes about 1 second to complete. In fighting, you may have 1/4 second. You won't have that 1 second.

A fully chambered kick may take too much time to deliver.

But if you were looking to land a side kick you would not start in his punching range. Side kicks come from just outside of his punching range....so the speed of his punch is moot.

 

[Dirty Dog]

But if you were looking to land a side kick you would not start in his punching range. Side kicks come from just outside of his punching range....so the speed of his punch is moot.

Not necessarily. You can throw the side kick while you're moving out of his punching range, or while he's moving out of yours. In either case, you're starting in punching range. And that's assuming (falsely) that you're not capable of throwing a side kick while staying in punching range.

 

[CB Jones]

You can throw the side kick while you're moving out of his punching range

Ok....but you moved out of punching range....so the speed of his punch doesn't matter and you can still fully chamber your kick

while he's moving out of yours.

Ok...he is moving outside punching range....so the speed of his punch doesn't matter and you can still fully chamber your kick

that's assuming (falsely) that you're not capable of throwing a side kick while staying in punching range.

We prefer a lil more room for the sidekick to create good acceleration and power so the kick doesn't just becomes a push. You either start at the right spacing or slide back enough for the right spacing....which puts you just a little outside punching range and allows you to fully chamber.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok....but you moved out of punching range....so the speed of his punch doesn't matter and you can still fully chamber your kick

It does if he knocks you out with it, before you move out of his range.

Ok...he is moving outside punching range....so the speed of his punch doesn't matter and you can still fully chamber your kick

It does if he knocks you out with it, before he moves out of his range.

We prefer a lil more room for the sidekick to create good acceleration and power so the kick doesn't just becomes a push. You either start at the right spacing or slide back enough for the right spacing....which puts you just a little outside punching range and allows you to fully chamber.

You're restricting your targets. I'm not. And if it's a push, no big deal. You just created more room, and quite possibly disrupted their balance, which is Really Bad for their ability to defend.

 

[dvcochran]

You still have to know what to look for to know what you're doing different.

I can perceive this by using the mirrors. How do I "know" what to look for if I do not understand what is being said to me? Visual aids are a huge help.

 

[dvcochran]

But if you were looking to land a side kick you would not start in his punching range. Side kicks come from just outside of his punching range....so the speed of his punch is moot.

I agree for a stationary punch but how often do you throw a stationary punch when sparring? The one exception I can think of is when they are charging hard. In TKD sparring it is a low percentage point punch but it does work in point sparring.

 

[CB Jones]

I agree for a stationary punch but how often do you throw a stationary punch when sparring? The one exception I can think of is when they are charging hard. In TKD sparring it is a low percentage point punch but it does work in point sparring.

My point was that the spacing allows you to chamber fully. Timing the speed of someone's stationary punch and then claiming there isn't enough time to fully chamber a sidekick is a moot point because it doesn't factor in that the puncher has to move into range to land the punch or that the beginning of the chamber can start outside of the punching range and with the extended reach of the leg the kick can land before the punch.

And even when engaged, with good movement you can still find the opportunities and spacing to land fully chambered sidekicks even against someone with fast punches.