Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Steven Lee, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub that existed for 300 years. Taekwondo isn't from Karate. It's a misconception from how some called Taekwondo Toudi like they called Taekyun Judo, Jiujitsu with linguistic influence during Japanese occupation. Byungin Yoon, the father of Taekwondo, called it Gwonbub. It looks Gwonbub. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtgdlTKW0AAkVDl.jpg

    "This content was organized by Master Cheolheui Park's testimony from 2005, recorded in the book "Gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History". "I was born in 1933", "I was 15 when Master Byungin Yoon taught me Taekwondo, he called it Gwonbub". https://i.imgur.com/E9qxpdl.png

    "YMCA Gwonbub club created Changmugwan Dojang & Pasaenggwan Dojo", "I was training Taekwondo at YMCA, I started Gwonbub at this era. Yoon called it Gwonbub." Also, Subak had frontal slap & punch. Fist & grab moving front & back. + Mustache Kokuryeo Korean. https://imgur.com/dP4XxxU.jpg

    This link is written in Korean because the book was published in Korean, but there should be many translators. Interpreting proofs is essential in making correct conclusions. Taekyun & Yetbub were the civilian version; Taekwondo was the military Gwonbub. m.blog.daum.net/teams684/69

    Gwonbub was a Korean martial art recorded in Muyedobotongji (Gwonbub) 300 years ago. As you see from the pictures, they look obviously Taekwondo. Karate look like Korean Gwonbub (Yoon's Taekwondo) probably because Karate copied Taekwondo for editing Toudi. https://i.imgur.com/MuXGNPv.png

    Civilian crude version is Taekyun (kicking & wrestling) & Taekyun Yetbub (meaning old way, older Taekwondo, this is Pyunssaum, Sibak, Nanjangbaksi, Gitssaum Flag Fight, all had frontal punch). The military art form is Taekwondo, had punch, sparred by kick. https://i.imgur.com/LwjGIti.png

    Subak had frontal slap, punch. + Korea had Flag Fight (Gitssaum, 1927 pictures & written description says fist fight; a type of civilian Pyunssaum like Yetbub, Nalparam) punching front & Taekwondo (military Gwonbub version) rotation-punching front. Hitting front isn't from Japan.

    Korea hitting front isn't from Japan. Breaking was self-created by practicing & improving common sense hitting. Korea had frontal hitting in Subak, Flag Fight (Gitssaum), Pyunssaum (Nanjangbaksi, civilian Sibak), Gwonbub (military). Karate copied Korean frontal strike & Breaking.
     
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  2. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Green Belt

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    As with many arts of the area there is a long history of cross trade of stylistic techniques and i dont pretend to know the whole story of development. Okinawa was a great trading point that developed its unique art, and they certainly could have picked things up from the Koreans.

    However modern Taekwondo is heavily influenced from Japanese Karate blended with older Korean Arts, similar to Korean Kumdo.
     
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  3. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    The first problem would be to define what is or is not TKD? As General relates in his book for any person or country to claim they created the attack or defense would be silly. Like claiming to have invented the wheel or discovering fire there were likely independent discoveries and inventions by different people in different places. So, just because there is some old Korean drawing of some Attack or defense does that say it was TKD?
    History is uncertain but it seems any codified Korean Arts were decimated during various invasions and occupations. Some have been resurrected but there is no telling what if any relation they have to the original. TKD origins. like most arts codified in the 19th and 20th century are well known. The system relied heavily on Shotokan - Shorin - Shorei roots as it was developed from the 1950's onward with a large portion of the early practitioners being Chung Do Kwan luminaries who did "Korean Karate"
    I will leave it to a KKW practitioner to enlighten as as to any specifics where the KKW system may have moved away from those roots after 1974 or so, instead adopting what the OP states.
     
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  4. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    No.
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What is your background in TKD? It helps in discussion to know a bit of each other's background (most of us have posted ours in whole and in bits multiple times on the forum).

    What sources are you using for this claim?
     
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  6. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Purple Belt

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    Congratulations on TPOM.
     
  7. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    To quote Wolfgang Pauli - This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
     
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  8. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Master of Arts

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    OP, I'll be better convinced of a link between Kwon Bop and TKD if you want to show me actual techniques or principles in Taekwondo that come uniquely from Kwon Bop and do not exist in Karate.

    Why is it that both individual techniques and chains of techniques appearing in Taekwondo Poomsae also appear in Karate Kata?

    Pictures and descriptions from the Muyedobotongji are so vague as to make them almost useless in reconstructing Kwon Bop in a physical sense. Where people have attempted to do so, Kwon Bop looks remarkably like Chinese Martial Arts.

    Sam Yang





    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're going to congratulate me for that every time I get it, you're going to get tired. :D
     
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  10. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    I had it once - you were away for work :)
     
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  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I think that was the month I spent two weeks in India with spotty internet.
     
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  12. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    If I go back and congratulate you on every post, will I get TPOM?
     
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  13. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    You'll need to congratulate him twice on at least one of them, and hope he doesn't thank you for every congratulation ;)
     
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  14. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Despite the obvious wrongness of the above post, its worth pointing out that Korean martial culture, whatever its form was when Japan took over, clearly had a big influence on karate.

    Almost every kick associated with karate in popular imagination came thanks to Korean subjugation. Karate is based on southern Chinese kungfu, they rarely kicked above the waist.

    Things like roundhouse kick and spinning hook kick, and all the stance work and distancing associated with high kicking are born from the extraction of cultural concepts by the invading Japanese oppressors.
     
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  15. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Taekwondo isn't from Karate. Everyone in the first generation of Taekwondo learned Gwonbub from Byungin Yoon. Taekwondo originating from Shotokan Karate is a misconception from how some 1st generation Taekwondo people called it Toudi/Tangsu. However, their teacher Yoon called it Gwonbub. Korean had those Gwonbub pictures already 300 years ago. No, all those South Korean Tangsu/Toudi Kwans came from Gwonbub Gwan/gym. Go 1 step further in research. Read my links. Before the name Taekwondo, names Tangsu/Toudi was used. That's from linguistic influence by Japanese occupation. Before that, Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I provided links for my quotes. Korean Gwonbub existed not just 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji but also in 1946 & before in the early 20th century. There are records of Gwonbub Gwan/Gym before Taekwondo was called Toudi/Tangsu by linguistic influence just like Taekyun was also called Jiujitsu, Judo (Yudo) in a newspaper. The rotation punch, knife hand stance, front kick, blocking kick all look very Taekwondo. Calling Taekwondo Gwonbub in 1946 predates calling it Tangsu, Toudi. Fact. I uploaded links for my references, which are all reputable references. Many my links are in Korean but there should be many translators. Interpreting evidences is essential for correct conclusion. My references include a Taekwondo master's book on gym oriented Taekwondo history. Here's a proof that Taekyun was called Judo (Yudo), Jiujitsu. https://i.imgur.com/dKf5yB5.jpg It's the same logic that Taekwondo was also called Tangsu/Toudi in the middle 20th century. In the early 20th century, it was called Gwonbub. Kihapsul, Kiaijutsu, Karate Tameshiwari's Origin/Source - Album on Imgur & Dukgi Song Kyulyun Taekyun Yetbub Sample Photos - Album on Imgur Bear Sports Topics | Facebook Here are summaries of more topics on Korean sports which I had to fight some people pushing bullshits without any reputable sources referencing. All my sources are all reputable & well known to scholars & other people experienced in such fields. Translate.
     
  16. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Taekwondo isn't from Karate, it's from Korean Gwonbub (including Taekwondo rotation punch) that existed even in 1946 & before in the early 20th century (& also 300 years ago in Muyedobotongji). Also, Korea had many street fighting games like Nalparam, Nanjangbaksi, Gitssaum, etc.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a very long post that restates the same points over and over.
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure what Korean street fighting games (whatever that means) have to do with the origin of what is now known as TKD.
     
  19. Steven Lee

    Steven Lee Blue Belt

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    Korean street fighting games are a bonus fact. I cover broad topics in traditional Korean sports. As for this place, I'm focusing on the origin of Taekwondo. In 1946 & before that, as I quoted a book "gym oriented retrospect on Taekwondo Creation History", Taekwondo was called Gwonbub. Also, 300 years old Muyedobotongji Gwonbub pictures clearly resemble today's Taekwondo including Taekwondo rotation punch, Knife Hand stance, blocking kick, front kick. Some people in the first generation of Taekwondo called it Toudi/Tangsu, but it's a linguistic influence from Japanese occupation. (Those people all learned Taekwondo from Byungin Yoon's Gwonbub, not from Karate. Karate looks similar because they probably copied Korean Gwonbub while they were inventing Karate from Toudi by copying Korean Gwonbub & Korean Breaking/Tameshiwari.) I also showed a screenshot calling Taekyun (it has 2 sets of games, 1 is kicking game with throwing, another part Yetbub is street fighting with punches) as Judo. Taekwondo was called Gwonbub in 1946. I have Gwonbub pictures from 300 years ago. What more proofs do we need?
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2019
  20. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    @Steven Lee

    So you are saying that the founders of the original 5 kwans.....lied about their lineage and were actually trained in Gwonbub?
     
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