TaeKwonDo and hip surgery prevelance

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Jun 26, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    As a relatively young practitioner (30) around older practitioners with hip surgery, I get the sensation that father time is just waiting me out.

    Why are TKDoins so injury prone and are there ways to medigate that? For an example, if I try to keep my weight as low as possible, will that reduce the risk of kicking related injuries?
     
  2. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    It's not just TKD . Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris both had hip replacements. I heard Don Wilson opine that anatomically hips are designed more for impact with legs at normal walking and running angles. Now, for instance when you do a side kick on a heavy bag that angle is different and part of what takes a toll over time. In one of He Il Cho's books he say to never use a bag over 60lbs because that is enough to develop and test power and heavier bags provide unnecessary impact resistance. Other factors like mine was a congenital misalignment I did no know I had (although I never knew why I had such trouble getting heel higher than toes on side kick until I learned of this) and Orthopedic MD told me this leads to hip issues later - and this was before I was aware of such issue. TKD has a lot of jumping compare to some TMAs so, those landing impacts play a part as well. So, good training surfaces, lessening impact repetitions and similar things can reduce the chance of hip issues.
     
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  3. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    What do you think about the fact that we elongate the hips with our body mechanics unlike Karatekas who tend to crunch and contract? Does it matter which way you do it for long-term health? I've heard that an entire class in Shotokan got injured from side kick lessons because they force the students this forward crunch.

    See here for reference. No TKD style executes side kicks like this.

    :
     
  4. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I do not know the numbers statistically but I doubt injuries in TKD are any higher than most other MA;s or other sports related activities. Just because of it's nature I do imagine more injuries occur at/below the waist. It can be a bear on the knees.
    I feel strongly that flexibility is the greatest ally for stemming injury in any physical activity. As well, common sense and knowing your own limits are paramount. This is much harder for a youthful, fit person to evaluate IMHO. An example would be doing head level kicks on a tree/wall/etc... Even a strongly affixed heavy punching bag could be cumulative. A younger/fit person may not feel anything errant while doing this but common sense should tell you there is no real value in doing it over and over, day after day. This is very different from toughening up the hands or feet IMHO.
    I do believe we can increase our range of motion without injury but it takes time.

    One thing I discovered in my competition experience is when we drilled it was very light contact, working mainly on strategy and technique. You learned to conserve your energy and strength for the very brief periods when you needed it.

    "Going hard" all the time is an old school notion that has largely been debunked. I think the phrase has changed in meaning over time; you can 'go hard' in your workout without causing any injury. Just be smart, listen to your body and use your common sense.

    All that said, accept the challenges and see how far you can go.
     
  5. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    All my TKD colleagues with surgeries can perform the full splits
     
  6. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    What is the consensus on stretching. take days off completely or always do a little every day
     
  7. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I believe that anatomically the hips and legs are best used forward and backward (as in walking) and less so in sideways movement.

    So exaggerated movements like high kicks are less potentially damaging for front kicks and back kicks, and more potentially damaging for kicks that raise the leg to the side, such as side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and hook kicks.

    Of course your legs can move to the side; the human body has an amazing range of movement. But if the movement is exaggerated, as is done with high kicks, and particularly with kicks that raise to the side, and done with high repetition, over many years (just how many will vary from person-to-person) the hips can become damaged. It’s like any sports related injury that comes from heavy use and repeated injury. Football players can end up with joint injuries from the rough nature of the game. Competitive swimmers can develop shoulder injuries from years of heavy training. Martial artists can end up with repetitive motion injuries, especially if the movement is extreme.

    I’m not a TKD person but I had clean, high kicks in my training, for years. My training has had some interruptions in the last few years and I have spent far less time with kicks than I did in the past. I’m also getting past my physical prime, as I turned 49 earlier this year. My front kicks are still clean and I can easily do them high. My back kicks are clean, but I’ve never done them above the midsection. But my side kicks, roundhouse kicks, and hook kicks really deteriorated. I’ve lowered them dramatically and it has taken time to clean them up again. I anticipate never using them high anymore, and I’ve decided I’m not a big fan of the hook and roundhouse anymore. I think that speaks to the natural movement of front-to-back, and less natural for raising to the side.

    I had a teacher a number of years ago who grew up training in the 1960s and 1970s. That was an era when people used little or no safety equipment and would beat the crap out of each other in sparring. He had his hips replaced, and I believe that early training with heavy contact contributed to it. People like to glamorize the “good old days” when people trained hard and “really learned how to fight” and contrast that with the “snowflakes” of today who can’t handle it. I think that’s nonsense. There needs to be a reasonable balance between solid training and safety. But stupid training is stupid training, and if you beat the crap out of each other in your youth to spend the last 30 years of your life barely able to walk, I would say that was stupid training and not a good trade. The problem is that you often don’t realize you are doing the damage until it is done and cannot be avoided. So you need to have some foresight and make some smart decisions about how you train. And you need to recognize when someone like an instructor is demanding that you do something in your training that you recognize is damaging to you, even if not immediately damaging but will be in the future if continued. And you need to be ready to say no. And some people will be able to get away with things for their whole life, without injury, that other people won’t. So people need to make personal decisions and recognize that there will be contrary examples to be found.

    So anyways, there can be more than one factor that goes into this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2020
  8. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    But the most commonly used rear leg roundhouse kick is not 45 degrees (although ITF patterns such as Hwa Rang promote that one). But rather the one that lands around center line. And that's surely not a side motion.
     
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  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    The hip and leg goes through a motion that raises it sideways from the body. Your supporting foot pivots so the toes point to the back (exactly how much may vary) and the leg and hip are extended somewhere out from the side of the body, or at least go through that range somewhere in the path of the kick.

    Contrast it with a front snap kick or front heel-thrust kick, and with a back heel thrust kick. Those follow a similar motion to walking, in the sense that the hip and leg move forward or backward, and not to the side.
     
  10. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    What makes you think there is any connection between TKD and hip surgery?
     
  11. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    99.9% of all TKD grandmasters I know of has had a hip surgery, including Earl Weiss.
     
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    Not the closed variation where the chamber is like a front kick - the most common way of doing it sparring to save time.
     
  13. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm guessing you don't know very many then. Because I know bunches who have not. I'd like to see your research comparing the rate of occurrence for TKD practitioners and the general population.
     
  14. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    I'll expand to master since GM titel is much rarer:

    Jaroslaw Suska, 7th degree, ITF world champion
    Ray Oneill: grandmaster,
    Miss julia: ITF world champion,
    Master Sutherland (twice)
    Master James Tjin-a-Ton:

    etc etc
     
  15. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Do you pivot the supporting foot and shifting the torso?

    Are you simply spiraling at the knee, with no adjustment of the supporting foot or the torso? Are you ending up facing forward with the shoulders squared?

    Could you find a video link of what you are talking about?
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So you don't understand the difference between evidence and anecdotes?
     
  17. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    I'm not Kim Peek. It was not hard to round up 5 names of master level practioners who went under the knife. I guess the bigger question is who didn't.
     
  18. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i think findibg any one of that age who hasnt got dodgy hips is difficult, the surgerys may be more or less than the general population, excesive ise gives problems, little use gives problems, perhaps finding some whete in the middle os best
     
  19. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    It's equally simple to round up 5 names who didn't.
    Me. GM Valdez. GM Kim. GM Castor. GM Lee. etc etc.
    But of course, that's anecdotal, same as yours. And equally useless.
    Apparently you don't have any evidence to support your supposition. That's fine. You're free to believe whatever you like. But since it's not based on any actual evidence, I don't think you should be shocked if people don't take it seriously.
     
  20. Acronym

    Acronym Blue Belt

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    How can I provide evidence of something that is not researched?123
     

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