Sword and hammer pt. 1 and 2

[ATACX GYM]

No, we're not. Because you are answering a different combative question than the standardized Sword & Hammer does.

You want to talk about a grab/push/strike from the rear flank? Sure, we can do that. But not if you're going to try to say it's the same as a grab/pull. Because the solutions to the two problems are going to be inherently different. It's like if I took out shopping for a luxury car, and went to a Mack dump truck shop. Both are valid forms of transport, fit for their duties -- but not variants of the same thing, either. And they won't solve the same problems.

aaaand drum roll please...

Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.

Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.




Okay. Now that we've made it clear that THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE...and my Sword and Hammer IS A...not THEE but is A...Ideal Phase Tech...we can move on.

[ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:

A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.

B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.

C. Counterattack with reverse punch.

How easy is that? ]

t's examine the REAL differences between the Sword and Hammer you're referring to and the Kenpo Idea [ which is merely a suggestion that I'm making to you guys ] which is also The ATACX GYM Ideal Sword and Hammer [ at this time; as we keep training? We refine improve and change. Did that with Blinding Sacrifice today, in fact ]...

...your Ideal is based upon somebody essentially putting his hand on your right shoulder, cocking his fist back, and...before he can fire a punch, push or do anything...you guys handsword his throat and hammerfist his nads. You train this tech with the idea that EVERY TIME somebody lays his hand on your shoulder, you'll be able to preemptively strike and finish him with your tech.

A couple Kenpo Elders whom I've been known to agree and disagree with, and I, all think that such an idea as perpetual preemptive striking is essentially nonsense on its face. And said nonsense will prevent you from reliably morally and legally performing. I said RELIABLY. Most people punch and punch fast and hard when they've cocked their fist back after they've grabbed your shoulder. Morally is subjective but LEGALLY is less so. Imagine a cop seeing you pull this tech off on some unarmed yahoo about your size. Guess what his reaction might be?

Observe Mr. Larry Tatum and Doc edify us all on this thread:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...-we-step-into-Triggered-Salute-by-Larry-Tatum

right there are about half of my reasons that I have a major problem with the expression of this tech and any expression remarkably akin to it.

The other half of the problem that I have are as follows:

1. I think that you should build into the tech itself the mandate to assess the situation. What if the person touching your shoulder doesn't deserve to be Kenpo'd into oblivion? He or she could be like:"Hey! Don't walk away from me!" What if he's just THREATENING you in an attempt to INTIMIDATE but not really trying to hurt you? That's much more along the lines of what uke is doing in the "classic" scenario looks like. He's no threat really. Blasting the throat and smashing the nads of some jerk putting his hand on your shoulder like it's a dead starfish and essentially posing like Al Bundy doing his Quarterback About To Pass Pose

is indefensible for the most part, imho.


2. You'll likely go to jail for damaging his larynx or some part of his throat and bruising his nads unless he's way bigger than you, armed, etc.

3. You're screwed if you're a Yellow Belt at "most" Kenpo schools who teach this tech ONLY this way...and the BG attacks you anywhere else but your right flank, or does anything other than barely touch you and pose with his fist. If he punches? You're toast. If he pushes or jerks holds pushes or punches as he punches or just before he does? You're grilled cheese sammich. If he attacks you from the LEFT shoulder or from the rear? You're PF Chang'd.


So I have come up with a way that...step by step...logically and progressively teaches you how to use The Sword and Hammer no matter what your opponent does. That's the IP premise and conclusion that I use. Do tech 'x' no matter WHAT the BG does. Guess what? That includes the "best case" scenario that is part and parcel, heart and soul to "most" Kenpo schools' IP....but they don't include mine.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Here's one way that I've used my 15 Round, 8 Hour Guarantee to teach a newb how to use this tech in a fight with only 8 hours or less of training with me

Just got a text about this thread...with a question in it. So lemme be extra simple:


Take the Sword and Hammer original scenario attack and tech. have uke really grab you and punch at you...first let's just call it a cross to the face. Work that joint first with no resistance for about 3-6 minz. No more than 2 boxing rounds. Your newb student gets what's expected by now.

Next. Show newb the techs you expect of him/her/them...Sword and Hammer. They'll be like...oh yeah we already know this joint from White Belt and all the times you made us do our techs to the cardinal directions which include...you guessed it...the flanks. So we already know how to throw a Sword and Hammer from the flanks.

You...wise Coach you...say but yeah now we're gonna change the scenario...the context...in which you gotta execute the tech. Work on your skills and mindset some more.

Newb yellow belt says COOL.

You make uke grab newb by the shoulder and swing a cross at newb's noggin. 10% power and speed. Not enough to hurt but you will get bopped if you miss the block. The key here? Uke can grab Newb Yellow Belt when he wants to. Newb yellow belt picks up fast because even though it's kinda FUNNY when you're bopped the first few times, the experience of gettin bopped really encourages you to apply the Sword and Hammer right.

First real world snag...you're gettin HIT while you're pinning and stepping...before you get the chop off. This is when uke ISN'T turning or pushing you. Or you're CLASHING with uke's punch when you Pin Step Chop. You're cancelling each other out.

Now what do you do?

Don't worry. You're a smart Coach and you tell newb Yellow what to do. Newb Yellow is like YAAAY and you make Newb Yellow do this tech first at slow speeds to be sure that it's grasped and then increase the speed and intensity of both the attack and the defense.

You should be at threshold speed and power for your class--the max or near max amount that you'll allow your students to safely practice at--within 6 rounds. 18 minutes plus a minute break between each round. That's 24 minutes. Newb Yellow is pretty pleased.

Then you tell uke sotto voce to start jackin with Newb Yellow's balance while uke is punching.

Alluva suddent Newb Yellow is getting pushed and pulled into the punches coming at him. Whereas before Newb Yellow was clashing with or beating uke's non-pulling, stationery attack? Now Newb Yellow is gettin bopped pretty regularly. 2 rounds of boppage occurs. In between rounds you hear Newb Yellow's issues and you tell Newb Yellow to get it together. You say:

"Never fear. I'm a smart Coach." Enter the cover and and turn option as shown in my video.

Newb spends 2 rounds learning the cover and turn option. Newb is starting to get it and kick a little anus now. We're at Round 10.

Call for 5 minute break. Coach Newb Yellow some more.

Resume training. Rounds 11-14 Newb Yellow is steadily kickin more anus. Yaay Newb.

You spend the 15th and final round fine tuning Newb Yellow's techs. End of class.


Next day you review the static grab for 3 rounds. Move directly into the grab+pull and or push for 9 more rounds. Newb Yellow is gettin it now and fast because there's concentrated focus on this approach and lotsa quality muscle reps.

By round 13? Newb Yellow is kickin uke's anal region with the cover and turn. And Newb Yellow and uke know it.

For round 14 and 15? you slowly walk Newb Yellow through a new situation....BG has grabbed Newb Yellow from THE BACK now. Walk Newb yellow through the cover and turn Sword and Hammer sans force through this tech.

Repeat again. With each different scenario. Including tackles, kicks, and weapons. There will be significant carryover because the muscle memory and programming is there...you're just making mental adjustments and slight tactical alterations.

In 8 hours, Newb Yellow will have developed baseline efficacy in using Sword and Hammer vs each of the primary attacks, will have enjoyed significant physical improvement along with the concomitant mental growth and confidence.

Now. How hard is that to grasp?


And how is that NOT Sword and Hammer?

 

[MJS]

Truth is that before I knew about the history of the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS, I knew that the stuff masking as THEE SINGLE SOLE IP is simply dysfunctional...but I separated that from what I knew of Mr. Parker's writings. Years ago I stated that I read Infinite Insights Into Kenpo and what I read squarely contradicted what was being taught as The Ideal Phase today. Observe:

[video][video=youtube_share;6CQKW5QTJJU]http://youtu.be/6CQKW5QTJJU[/video][/video]


So I never hated The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS. I always hated what was called The IP now. I knew it wasn't right. Then Doc educated me further a few months ago and I shared that info with all of you here.


I think Doc was historically right. In his statement we see the sensible resolution of 2 complete opposites: Mister Parker was alleged to be a fearsome fighter with knowledge in multiple disciplines, who was in a state of constant evolution. From the Mitose-Chow influence to the Chinese Arts-infused with American practicality hybrid. Many students and black belts of his who rolled with him in one area of his phases left when he evolved into something else. Those who favored the more K.S. Chow and Japanese flavor of his art left when he began flowing toward the Chinese Arts. Etc. etc.

So if what Doc says is true? We can see at once how Mister Parker had to baby feed an American public techs that they were for the most part wholly unfamiliar with [ remember most people never heard of Karate in the early 1960s ] and he had to draw large numbers of people into his commercial vehicle so he can make a living. So he couldn't show them grappling and stuff that we see commonly in MMA. [ Remember, MMA took 14 years to catch on and that's in today's post-Bruce, post-Mr.Parker Era, current Jackie Chan, Jet Li, and Tony Jaa Era...so imagine how hard it was back then. Sans internet, too, btw ].

We can also see why he taught The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS too. He needed to get people to think independently but he had to reach them where they are. They didn't know wth he was talking about and wth to do without him.

So what happened was people simply copied what Mr. Parker showed as AN EXAMPLE because they didn't understand what he was saying and doing. From years ago, I came to the conclusion that Mr. Parker was telling us to do stuff functionally and most Kenpoists weren't doing it. I was right...even before Doc furnished me with all the specifics proving that I was correct and edified me further on stuff that I had no idea about.



So. Doc told us truthfully that most Kenpo schools got the whole definition and process of The IP wrong. We can read that reality written in Mr. Parker's own hand...long before the trouble started. What you do with that info is up to you.

Now on to the Sword and Hammer thing...first and foremost? I didn't do it wrong. I followed the process as specifically written by Mr. Parker. Every step of the way. My Sword and Hammer is A idea that is MY GYM'S Ideal Technique. If you want to keep the more popular version [ even though it doesn't fit all of the steps of The Ideal Phase Analtyical Technique PROCESS, and thus isn't strictly qualified to be called a IP Tech] ? Go right on ahead. But keeping the version you prefer doesn't mean that I'm wrong to do the version that I prefer...MY Sword and Hammer...because I'm not doing YOUR Sword and Hammer.

I am, without a doubt, following The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS faithfully though. And it's that PROCESS which validates the expression that I choose. When my technique works exactly as shown? It's that reality that validates that I followed the PROCESS yielding the technique properly. Think of The Ideal Phase as Kenpo's Scientific Method [ Observation, Hypothesice, Experimentation, Conclusion ]. The results are far more reliable and exacting etc etc if you follow The Scientific Method, but The Scientific Method is NOT the results and the results are NOT The Scientific Method.

The most popular expression of each and every tech in Kenpo did not follow Kenpo's Scientific Method...The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS...but it claims that it did.

Well, as usual, thats the problem with the arts today....too many *******s who're more concerned with the number of techs that they feel they need to know, a lack of quality and too much of of a concern with how much fancy rank they have. Totally devalues the art, IMO. So, by having his mess, you end up with clones....1 ****** teacher just breeds a ****** student, who in turns breeds his own ****** student, thus a ton of ****...LOL.

As for your version of S&H and the other versions....to parrot what Chris or TF or someone said....I think it comes down to what you're doing, is not the same as the S&H found in a Tatum school. Just like Kaju....you have the original method, the Gaylord method, Ramos, etc. Its all Kaju, but no doubt the Original method punch techs will differ from the Gaylord method.

 

[ATACX GYM]

i refuse to believe that GDM Parker went through the trouble of creating the manuals if they didnt mean anything...

he put it on paper in a certain way, a certain response to a certain attack for a reason

for that matter, if there is no "right" way of doing ANY technique WHY CREATE 172 OF THE DAMNED THINGS?!?!?!?!?!

Think of it this way, John...The 4 step Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS is directly equivalent to The Scientific Method [ Observation, Hypothesize, Experimentation, Conclusion ] . If you follow The Scientific Method? Each and every one of your experiments will have greater scientific integrity. But The Scientific Method is NOT the experiment...and using The Scientific Method doesn't make you privy to the thoughts of THE CREATOR of The Scientific Method. Further...there are a gang of other scientists with whom you may disagree who are following or not following The Scientific Method with various degrees of fidelity and faithfulness.

That's pretty much what I would opine is what's going on here.

Aaaand...once again...MR. PARKER DID NOT CREATE THE IP TECHNIQUES. Check this most recent post of Doc's out, as he and I discuss and sometimes duel about this very issue:

now your talk'n

So...just to be clear...if you're not Ed Parker? You're not doing Ed Parker's Kenpo. You're doing YOUR Kenpo based upon how you interpret how Ed Parker's Motion Kenpo applies TO YOU.



Because the Ideal Phase technique is a construct of the individual head instructor, (or at least is supposed to be), to say that the "Ideal Phase" doesn't work highlights a gross misunderstanding of the art and the progenitors intent for that particular splinter vehicle. When you say, "The Ideal doesn't work." You can only be talking about yourself, or your teacher, and not about Mr. Parker's Interpretations, which were unique to him and his personal teachings. Some people have a hard time of understanding that.

The motion based vehicle is designed to be interpreted. First, by a head instructor to his teachers if he has any, who carry the Ideal to the students. Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate was never supposed to be a hard codified system of training, but instead was designed to be more conceptually mobile, and than interpreted by competent sources of instruction to insure its commerciality, while at the same time providing "reasonably competent" instruction for the average, (and below average) customer. But, the Xerox Effect in conjunction with business mandates, (among other things), destroyed the upper level competency in less than a teaching generation. So much so, all that is left is "Trickle Down Incompetency," as most commercial schools race to be first in line at the bottom of the martial arts.

Even those that don't, try as they may to do the right thing, do not have the level of knowledge and experience to rise to higher levels of competency in an art that only had one real expert, who never hard codified what he did to be so physically successful. One of the reasons he did not is, the actual hard codified model is commercially much more labor intensive and requires many more competent and knowledgeable teachers, guided by the knowledgeable and experienced, and requires a higher level of commitment of students and teachers alike, like in most traditional arts. Commercial Kenpo didn't proliferate because it is a superior art, although it has the potential to be, it proliferated because it lowered the bar to the floor where literally everyone could step over it and get a belt.

But make no mistake, Ed Parker's kenpo Karate that some mistakenly refer to as EPAK, (a term coined after Mr. Parker's death as a business anacronym) is a prescribed methodology with guidelines in place to take the student in a prescribed direction, in a prescribed manner, at a predetermined pace. And while not all of it is as sound as it might be due to business concerns and interest, that portion that isn't was supposed to be countered by competent and flexible instruction to the extent allowed within a schools circumstances.

While "doing your own thing" is encouraged in Ed Parker's kenpo Karate, the flexibility is only within the prescribed conceptual outline. You cannot buy into all the terminology and descriptions of methodology, and insert your own methodology and call it your own version of Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Doing it your own way is OK, but that makes it yours and not his. You are absolutely entitled to screw up his method, just stop saying his Ideal doesn't work, and you're fixing it for him. It was never his Ideal, but somebody else's. So once again, call it whatever you want, but if you're not going to use his methods, drop the terminology and technique names and jump into the deep end of the pool and create your own.

Of course for some it is a lot easier to do whatever you want in the name of fixing someone else's work, and that way you can use what you want and discard the hard stuff like creating an academic support structure for all the great ideas and techniques you come up with, and when it fails on a larger scale beyond just doing a technique, you can blame it on Ed Parker. How convenient. He predicted that would happen, and I disagreed with him. Once agin, he was right. Using his motion vehicle to create your own style is what he wanted, but stop using his name to prop up your own style unless you were taught by him, or subscribe to his methods. Unfortunately, he ended up giving everyone the vehicle to proclaim themselves experts and everyone is a young master.

Using myself as an example, I was taught Kenpo EXCLUSIVELY by Mr. Parker for almost thirty-years, and I use the methods he taught me, and even borrow certain aspects of his commercial system, but I don't call it Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. I have my own hard codified curriculum he taught me how to create, and I give all the credit to him. But I'm not fixing anything. I'm doing Kenpo In his name, not ON his name. Atacx Gym Kenpo sounds good. Claim it, drop the Ed Parker references because you didn't know him. Now go to work and create the hard structure to support your ideas. That's where the rubber meets the road in a system. Other wise you're not doing anything different from every other guy smarter than Ed Parker. Anyone can create techniques that will work or not on their own merit, but creating a real competent system that can be passed down through generations is where the big boys hang out, and that is a really small club. Sooner or later you have to leave the conceptual ideas, and come up with hard physical facts - or not!

And my response:

Okay. I see more clearly where you're coming from now, Doc. I thought that I was being perfectly clear that I was doing my own thing when I said...ATACX GYM KENPO KARATE or ATACX GYM [ INSERT TECH OR EXERCISE OR WHATEVER ]...on nearly every single video I put out there. Lololol. I see that I'm going to have to be even MORE clear now. Somewhat...disappointing that is. Okay. I'll do it. No problem.

Another thing? I screwed up for the better part of a year when I was dissin the IP. I meant...and thought I was clear when I was saying it...I was dissing the functionality of training methods. I don't know how many literal hundreds of posts that I have saying such a thing. But I want to take it a step further...I'd neeever diss Mr.Parker in that way. I'd never spoken and will never speak in his name.

Back to the IP...

...I began to use the terminology of others [ referring to the stuff that's AN Ideal as if it's THEE Ideal ] even though I didn't believe that it was correct...just so I could get my arguments across. My argument was that the stuff masquerading as THEE IP needed a wholesale upgrade because they're dysfunctinal. Apparently somehow I wasn't as clear as I thought I was there, either. I have about 1k posts...dollars to donuts at least 500 of 'em are making the argument I just stated or are related directly to such a position. But still some people didn't get it.

You know what? If you hadn't told us the stuff you did about Kenpo's backstory and other crucial pieces of info, I'd still be lost in crucial areas: like how this IP morass came about, and I neeeever heard of Motion Kenpo and all that it entails until you began to post about it.

Something important: I wasn't dissing Mr. Parker. I was dissing the dysfunctional training methods that were claiming to be the IP. I said so on video long before I ever heard of Kenpo sites and years before we ever interacted, Doc. Observe:


[video=youtube_share;6CQKW5QTJJU]http://youtu.be/6CQKW5QTJJU[/video]



As for the hard curriculum? The funny thing is...I've already been doing that. Years of study dedicated to athletic performance, diet and nutrition, kinesiology, biomechanics, sports psychology, etc etc. I even specify plyometrics, calisthenics and the other stuff in this video.

Now I'm really gonna do some ill stuff.

Save a seat for me at The Big Boyz Table, Doc. We're gonna be ATACKIN yall real soon.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Well, as usual, thats the problem with the arts today....too many *******s who're more concerned with the number of techs that they feel they need to know, a lack of quality and too much of of a concern with how much fancy rank they have. Totally devalues the art, IMO. So, by having his mess, you end up with clones....1 ****** teacher just breeds a ****** student, who in turns breeds his own ****** student, thus a ton of ****...LOL.

As for your version of S&H and the other versions....to parrot what Chris or TF or someone said....I think it comes down to what you're doing, is not the same as the S&H found in a Tatum school. Just like Kaju....you have the original method, the Gaylord method, Ramos, etc. Its all Kaju, but no doubt the Original method punch techs will differ from the Gaylord method.

And at last we agree!

 

[Twin Fist]

Mr. Parker wanted to create an internationally uniform system of Kenpo that you could start learning in California and continue learning in Texas, New Jersey, or Ireland - without having to relearn your material every time you moved to, or visited, a new school.

This doesn't mean we can’t go beyond the base material, as outlined in our manuals. Of course we can, and we should.

Mr. Parker said many times that we should expand our knowledge and grow individually. When someone asks me how a technique is done, I sometimes say, this is how it's done, and this is how I do it.

What I keep consistent is the curriculum I teach, not the way I personally perform every move. I believe that Kenpo is in the principles, not in the specific techniques we use to learn those principles, so a person could make up all new techniques and forms and still be teaching Kenpo. I just don’t see any reason to do so.

-Rich Hale from his website at :
http://www.pacifickenpo.com/White-Papers/A-Case-for-Consistency.html

 

[MJS]

aaaand drum roll please...

Originally Posted by Doc
You really need to let the word "ideal" go. Try this; THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE. What is there exists because people moved up the ranks and became instructors with no knowledge, skill, or experience. These people made the outline IDEA in the manuals the IDEAL because they could not create the IDEAL as Mr. Parker said they were supposed to. Each school, group, club etc was supposed to have one person who would set the IDEAL but only for their group. What you have is a bunch of people all taking the ideas in a manual and teaching it because that's all they have. So removes the word IDEAL from your vocabulary, unless you are talking about IDEALS you created that you teach for your students. That is the only ideal there is. What YOU CREATE.

Originally Posted by Doc
Yep! Mr. Parker gave the the "Ideal Phase" concept, but never gave the "Ideal Technique." In his own words he described what they were supposed to do in the Ideal Phase, but instead they took the Ideas in the manual, even when they didn't make sense and just taught whatever it said. Nobody cared whether they worked or not, all they wanted was to meet the requirements so they could get promoted. Then they turned around and did the same thing with their own students. Apparently, for many, thinking was optional.




Okay. Now that we've made it clear that THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE...and my Sword and Hammer IS A...not THEE but is A...Ideal Phase Tech...we can move on.

[ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:

A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.

B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.

C. Counterattack with reverse punch.

How easy is that? ]

t's examine the REAL differences between the Sword and Hammer you're referring to and the Kenpo Idea [ which is merely a suggestion that I'm making to you guys ] which is also The ATACX GYM Ideal Sword and Hammer [ at this time; as we keep training? We refine improve and change. Did that with Blinding Sacrifice today, in fact ]...

...your Ideal is based upon somebody essentially putting his hand on your right shoulder, cocking his fist back, and...before he can fire a punch, push or do anything...you guys handsword his throat and hammerfist his nads. You train this tech with the idea that EVERY TIME somebody lays his hand on your shoulder, you'll be able to preemptively strike and finish him with your tech.

A couple Kenpo Elders whom I've been known to agree and disagree with, and I, all think that such an idea as perpetual preemptive striking is essentially nonsense on its face. And said nonsense will prevent you from reliably morally and legally performing. I said RELIABLY. Most people punch and punch fast and hard when they've cocked their fist back after they've grabbed your shoulder. Morally is subjective but LEGALLY is less so. Imagine a cop seeing you pull this tech off on some unarmed yahoo about your size. Guess what his reaction might be?

Observe Mr. Larry Tatum and Doc edify us all on this thread:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...-we-step-into-Triggered-Salute-by-Larry-Tatum

right there are about half of my reasons that I have a major problem with the expression of this tech and any expression remarkably akin to it.

The other half of the problem that I have are as follows:

1. I think that you should build into the tech itself the mandate to assess the situation. What if the person touching your shoulder doesn't deserve to be Kenpo'd into oblivion? He or she could be like:"Hey! Don't walk away from me!" What if he's just THREATENING you in an attempt to INTIMIDATE but not really trying to hurt you? That's much more along the lines of what uke is doing in the "classic" scenario looks like. He's no threat really. Blasting the throat and smashing the nads of some jerk putting his hand on your shoulder like it's a dead starfish and essentially posing like Al Bundy doing his Quarterback About To Pass Pose

is indefensible for the most part, imho.


2. You'll likely go to jail for damaging his larynx or some part of his throat and bruising his nads unless he's way bigger than you, armed, etc.

3. You're screwed if you're a Yellow Belt at "most" Kenpo schools who teach this tech ONLY this way...and the BG attacks you anywhere else but your right flank, or does anything other than barely touch you and pose with his fist. If he punches? You're toast. If he pushes or jerks holds pushes or punches as he punches or just before he does? You're grilled cheese sammich. If he attacks you from the LEFT shoulder or from the rear? You're PF Chang'd.


So I have come up with a way that...step by step...logically and progressively teaches you how to use The Sword and Hammer no matter what your opponent does. That's the IP premise and conclusion that I use. Do tech 'x' no matter WHAT the BG does. Guess what? That includes the "best case" scenario that is part and parcel, heart and soul to "most" Kenpo schools' IP....but they don't include mine.

Oh my....I think we may be drifting into another topic, but what the hell...I'll comment anyways. Ok...as I've said in other threads, I'm a big advocate of the pre-emptive strike. Yeah, I know....people are going to say, "Yeah, but how's it going to look if someone sees you hit this guy?" Sure, on the surface, not good, but, what people forget, is when this guy is calling me, my wife and mom, every name in the book, standing 5ft. away from me, fists clenched, teeth clenched, red faced...THAT should be a no brainer that somethings coming down the pike...lol. Sorry, but I'm not waiting until the guy is right in front of me, with the punch racing towards my face. If thats frowned upon by some, then so be it. I'll deal with the aftermath later, but right now, my well being, and the well being of anyone with me, is my #1 priority.

Next...I've said numerous times, that we, as martial artists, should be able to assess each situation as its presented to us, and modify/adapt our defense accordingly. So, that said, I shouldnt have to hit his throat. Why can't I do a backhand to his face? Why can't I hit his face with my forearm? Why can't I palm heel? The list is endless.

Once again, the way I taught....I'd teach the tech. I'd drill them repeatedly. From there, I'd gradually increase the speed/intensity of the attack. Again, they'd drill it repeatedly. The only thing the attacker is doing, is just giving a hard attack, nothing else. Once thats done, I'd now have the attacker mix things up a bit. The speed is brought back down to a slow pace, just until the student gets comfortable. The badguy can now do more, so using S&H as a model...they can now.....push, pull, change attacks, punch, kick, whatever.

 

[jks9199]

The big thing about a preemptive strike is how you articulate what you did, and why you did it. An aggressive grab at your shoulder IS an assault. You are justified in using reasonable force to defend yourself at that point. THE ASSAULT IS ALREADY HAPPENING!What is important is to have sufficient awareness within your reaction to adjust and reshape it as you turn and identify the attacker. That concern is present, whether the attack is a pull or a push; you must identify the attacker and shape your response appropriately.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Oh my....I think we may be drifting into another topic, but what the hell...I'll comment anyways. Ok...as I've said in other threads, I'm a big advocate of the pre-emptive strike. Yeah, I know....people are going to say, "Yeah, but how's it going to look if someone sees you hit this guy?" Sure, on the surface, not good, but, what people forget, is when this guy is calling me, my wife and mom, every name in the book, standing 5ft. away from me, fists clenched, teeth clenched, red faced...THAT should be a no brainer that somethings coming down the pike...lol. Sorry, but I'm not waiting until the guy is right in front of me, with the punch racing towards my face. If thats frowned upon by some, then so be it. I'll deal with the aftermath later, but right now, my well being, and the well being of anyone with me, is my #1 priority.

Next...I've said numerous times, that we, as martial artists, should be able to assess each situation as its presented to us, and modify/adapt our defense accordingly. So, that said, I shouldnt have to hit his throat. Why can't I do a backhand to his face? Why can't I hit his face with my forearm? Why can't I palm heel? The list is endless.

Once again, the way I taught....I'd teach the tech. I'd drill them repeatedly. From there, I'd gradually increase the speed/intensity of the attack. Again, they'd drill it repeatedly. The only thing the attacker is doing, is just giving a hard attack, nothing else. Once thats done, I'd now have the attacker mix things up a bit. The speed is brought back down to a slow pace, just until the student gets comfortable. The badguy can now do more, so using S&H as a model...they can now.....push, pull, change attacks, punch, kick, whatever.

Under these circumstances where ole dude was cussin and getting progressively more and more belligerent? I'd leave. If I couldn't? And it was going to devolve into some sort of conflict? I'd probably hit him with a blast double leg takedown. It's a shocker and very effective even against tall big guys. I can use my grappling and stuff. Another good thing is a hard leg kick. That'll jack a guy up without hospitalizing him or getting me in jail. Also makes him NOT wanna fight usually even if he's still standing after I crack him.

Usually though I opt for grappling in that kind of scenario. Clinch work and double legs, Judo sweeps trips and throws, etc. Very effective and less likely to go to jail. Plus t he mobility I practice allows me to keep an eye out for th BG's friends.

 

[Chris Parker]

Oh dear freakin' lord....

The Sword and Hammer that Mr. Parker showed as AN EXAMPLE is NOT a tech that WE ALL MUST SLAVISHLY FOLLOW. That's like taking an example solution for an algebra equation...and saying that all of algebra has to look exactly like that example problem and example solution. You're supposed to learn THE PROCESS OF SOLVING ALGEBRA. You're NOT supposed to COPY THIS SAMPLE PROBLEM AND SOLUTION AND SAY THAT'S ALL ALGEBRA IS.

If I'm trying to teach you algebra and I give you this problem and say: "Solve for 'x' ":

x - 4 = 10

and you say x=14 and I say great! You did it! You're NOT supposed to think that every time you see x? X MUST equal 14.

You're supposed to grasp the thinking and solving processes that leads to the correct answer every time you're faced with a problem.

Right, but what is the process ("solve for x") that Sword and Hammer is teaching? I ask as you seem completely ignorant of it, and you may use a large number of words in your responses, but you don't actually say much. Is Sword and Hammer just any response against an attacker on your rear flank? Or is there something more to it, something that makes a particular strategic response "Sword and Hammer"?

Again...there IS NO HARD AND FAST IDEAL TECHNIQUE THAT ALL OTHERS MUST BOW TO. You as a teacher are to craft your own IP for your students using a scenario that you select and the techs suggested for your scenario...like Sword and Hammer...then apply the 4 step tango of The Ideal Phase Analytical Technique PROCESS to it so that you can come up with a response.

Your IP will be different than mine. But if you follow the 4 step tango? It will work.

Taking your "Tango" simile, a tango isn't a salsa, it's a tango... so what are the "steps" that make Sword and Hammer distinctly Sword and Hammer?

Are we all on the same page now? Can we move on now? Chris Parker asked an excellent question about "lessons" in Sword and Hammer that I'd like to address but we gotta get this straight and have all of us on the same page so we can properly have that discussion and kick around the lessons that we've all learned. Maybe we can help each other grasp things better as a whole in a way that we by ourselves or with a smaller group of friends could NOT do.

Honestly, until you finally classify what you see Sword and Hammer as being, I don't think we can be on the same page, because you seem to be ignoring what it actually is in your expression.... so, one more time now, what do you think is needed for a technique to be Sword and Hammer? It's kinda essential to the discussion of your version to understand what you think it is in the first place... and you've put down another 10 or so answers, taking up pages worth of space, you even state that it's a good question here, but have completely failed, again, to even attempt to answer it.

So, for the chance to go onto the next round, what do you think defines "Sword and Hammer"?

What it seems like, is you're saying (and again this is a guess) is that all ideal phase techs suck. They wont work. But what I'm (you) doing, does. I believe this is the issue with what Chris and TF are saying.

No, we're not. Because you are answering a different combative question than the standardized Sword & Hammer does.

You want to talk about a grab/push/strike from the rear flank? Sure, we can do that. But not if you're going to try to say it's the same as a grab/pull. Because the solutions to the two problems are going to be inherently different. It's like if I took out shopping for a luxury car, and went to a Mack dump truck shop. Both are valid forms of transport, fit for their duties -- but not variants of the same thing, either. And they won't solve the same problems.

And this from JKS underlines the question I'm asking....

Okay. Now that we've made it clear that THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. THERE IS NO UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED IDEAL TECHNIQUE...and my Sword and Hammer IS A...not THEE but is A...Ideal Phase Tech...we can move on.

Right, this is just cause it's annoying me... Ras, I know you, for who knows what reason, like to extend words to emphasize them, either to show how correct you are by exaggerating it, or as a form of sarcasm for things you don't agree with, but it's really not having that effect. Honestly, it makes you look rather ill-educated in a number of ways... for example, your constant usage of "THEE Ideal..." Ras, "thee" means "you". How about you stick to correct grammar and spelling in order to add more weight to your argument? That said, it's good to see you learnt how to embed the clips...

[ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:

A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.

B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.

C. Counterattack with reverse punch.

How easy is that?

Honestly? I see quite a few issues there... and frankly, the regular Sword and Hammer I'd class as superior in a number of ways.

Let's examine the REAL differences between the Sword and Hammer you're referring to and the Kenpo Idea [ which is merely a suggestion that I'm making to you guys ] which is also The ATACX GYM Ideal Sword and Hammer [ at this time; as we keep training? We refine improve and change. Did that with Blinding Sacrifice today, in fact ]...

Right...

...your Ideal is based upon somebody essentially putting his hand on your right shoulder, cocking his fist back, and...before he can fire a punch, push or do anything...you guys handsword his throat and hammerfist his nads. You train this tech with the idea that EVERY TIME somebody lays his hand on your shoulder, you'll be able to preemptively strike and finish him with your tech.

"You guys"? Uh, you mean the rest of the Kenpo community there, Ras? Again, I'm unsure that you realize what makes a technique what it is...

A couple Kenpo Elders whom I've been known to agree and disagree with, and I, all think that such an idea as perpetual preemptive striking is essentially nonsense on its face. And said nonsense will prevent you from reliably morally and legally performing. I said RELIABLY. Most people punch and punch fast and hard when they've cocked their fist back after they've grabbed your shoulder. Morally is subjective but LEGALLY is less so. Imagine a cop seeing you pull this tech off on some unarmed yahoo about your size. Guess what his reaction might be?

What his reaction could be almost anything, Ras, it comes down to the circumstances surrounding the action and the interpretation. But, again, I think you miss what the technique is teaching.

right there are about half of my reasons that I have a major problem with the expression of this tech and any expression remarkably akin to it.

The other half of the problem that I have are as follows:

1. I think that you should build into the tech itself the mandate to assess the situation. What if the person touching your shoulder doesn't deserve to be Kenpo'd into oblivion? He or she could be like:"Hey! Don't walk away from me!" What if he's just THREATENING you in an attempt to INTIMIDATE but not really trying to hurt you? That's much more along the lines of what uke is doing in the "classic" scenario looks like. He's no threat really. Blasting the throat and smashing the nads of some jerk putting his hand on your shoulder like it's a dead starfish and essentially posing like Al Bundy doing his Quarterback About To Pass Pose

is indefensible for the most part, imho.

Why do you think that that assessment of the situation isn't in there? Seriously, this is why I'd question your understanding of it in the first place...

I'll put it this way, the technique involves the bad guy grabbing your shoulder, aiming to turn you back towards them, then launch a punch. Your first response is to grab their grabbing hand (which gives physical and psychological control of the situation), followed by you turning (typically turning your head first) towards the opponent (if they have started to pull, step a little ahead of their timing, which will get you in with your pre-emptive strike before the punch is properly launched... so your concerns about the pre-emptive strike not being realistic or practical just tells me you don't understand pre-emptive striking...), which is where the assessment comes in that you were looking for. You turn and look at the threat, and assess. And if it's a violent threat (a punch), you can respond with the technique.

If you weren't taught it, that's a problem of your instruction. If you can't see it, that's a problem of your understanding of the technique, and the structure of the techniques in general, which would lead you to believe that you actually do know better. Hmm.

2. You'll likely go to jail for damaging his larynx or some part of his throat and bruising his nads unless he's way bigger than you, armed, etc.

Possible, yeah. Hence the assessment part. You may decide to change the target... which could be as simple as targeting the side of the neck instead of the throat, which disrupts the blood flow and attacks nerves, without risking damaging the airways. Or attack the bicep of the far (punching) arm. Or the bridge of the nose. Or the temple. Or under the nose itself. Or the ribs (which could then have the hammerfist strike up to the face, if you want...)... should I go on?

3. You're screwed if you're a Yellow Belt at "most" Kenpo schools who teach this tech ONLY this way...and the BG attacks you anywhere else but your right flank, or does anything other than barely touch you and pose with his fist. If he punches? You're toast. If he pushes or jerks holds pushes or punches as he punches or just before he does? You're grilled cheese sammich. If he attacks you from the LEFT shoulder or from the rear? You're PF Chang'd.

The question is why the technique is being taught that way, Ras, which I don't think you get from the way you're arguing here. If it's to teach the lessons, the movement and angling, the concept of pre-emptive strikes, and so on, it's fine... but it would need to be taught that way, in that context, not as the ultimate answer to that attack, which is the attitude you're coming across with here.

But I mean, seriously, your argument here is that the hypothetical student is in trouble if the attacker attacks with a different tactic to the one the technique is designed against? Really? Isn't that basically the same as saying that a high block is great against a punch, but you're in trouble if you try to apply it against a kick to your shins? Dude, have you thought that it's designed against a type of attack as that's the way it's designed to work?

So I have come up with a way that...step by step...logically and progressively teaches you how to use The Sword and Hammer no matter what your opponent does. That's the IP premise and conclusion that I use. Do tech 'x' no matter WHAT the BG does. Guess what? That includes the "best case" scenario that is part and parcel, heart and soul to "most" Kenpo schools' IP....but they don't include mine.

There is no "works against every attack" technique. Deal with it. Your responses aren't Sword and Hammer, in the sense of Kenpo's Sword and Hammer, no matter what you decide to call it. All your posturing just shows a desperate lack of grounding in the way these things actually work.

Now, after two pages and 10 long-winded answers to questions people weren't asking, mainly by quoting yourself as some form of evidence that you agree with yourself (?), can you answer the most pressing question of this thread... if this is your expression of Sword and Hammer, even though it contains only the most superficial connections to the actual tactic of Sword and Hammer, what criteria do you apply to claim something as Sword and Hammer in the first place? Just that, then we can deal with whether or not your version actually is or not.

 

[ATACX GYM]

Chris. I indicated that I would answer your question about Sword and Hammer after I resolved the questions that were posed prior to your asking your question. I will supply you with a comprehensive answer regarding this matter shortly. In the interim? Your rudeness is neither appreciated nor necessary. I will return later today and give a powerful reply that will directly address each and every matter that you brought up.

Thank you.

AMANI..."peace"...

HEAD COACH RAS OF THE ATACX GYM

 

[Twin Fist]

keep it under 1000 words.

 

[MJS]

Under these circumstances where ole dude was cussin and getting progressively more and more belligerent? I'd leave. If I couldn't? And it was going to devolve into some sort of conflict? I'd probably hit him with a blast double leg takedown. It's a shocker and very effective even against tall big guys. I can use my grappling and stuff. Another good thing is a hard leg kick. That'll jack a guy up without hospitalizing him or getting me in jail. Also makes him NOT wanna fight usually even if he's still standing after I crack him.

Usually though I opt for grappling in that kind of scenario. Clinch work and double legs, Judo sweeps trips and throws, etc. Very effective and less likely to go to jail. Plus t he mobility I practice allows me to keep an eye out for th BG's friends.

Sure, thats one good option. Me personally, I might be more inclined to just fire off a kick to the balls, leg, shin, rather than clinching up, but again, situation depending.

 

[MJS]

t's examine the REAL differences between the Sword and Hammer you're referring to and the Kenpo Idea [ which is merely a suggestion that I'm making to you guys ] which is also The ATACX GYM Ideal Sword and Hammer [ at this time; as we keep training? We refine improve and change. Did that with Blinding Sacrifice today, in fact ]...

...your Ideal is based upon somebody essentially putting his hand on your right shoulder, cocking his fist back, and...before he can fire a punch, push or do anything...you guys handsword his throat and hammerfist his nads. You train this tech with the idea that EVERY TIME somebody lays his hand on your shoulder, you'll be able to preemptively strike and finish him with your tech.

A couple Kenpo Elders whom I've been known to agree and disagree with, and I, all think that such an idea as perpetual preemptive striking is essentially nonsense on its face. And said nonsense will prevent you from reliably morally and legally performing. I said RELIABLY. Most people punch and punch fast and hard when they've cocked their fist back after they've grabbed your shoulder. Morally is subjective but LEGALLY is less so. Imagine a cop seeing you pull this tech off on some unarmed yahoo about your size. Guess what his reaction might be?

As I've said before, I think you and I are pretty much doing the same thing, although there're some slight differences. We're both trying to get to the end of the road, but we're just going about it in a different way. You're addressing the punch sooner, whereas I'm focusing on the technique, without the punch, going into the 'what ifs' later on. As for the pre-empt...sounds like you dont have much faith in it. I'll disagree, if thats the case, as I do have faith in it. In your case though, with what you wrote, it seems the reason you disagree with it, is because you dont think that it'll work, given the scenario you describe. The pre-empt is, IMO, designed to stop an attack before it fully unfolds. In this case, we're assuming the person isn't aware they're about to be grabbed. That said, no, the pre empt wont work, because the attack has already unfolded.

If we look at S&H, we're moving in to the attack anyways. The only difference between what you're doing Ras and the way the tech is normally done, is the inital move. Of course, unless the teacher is instilling in the students that they must do the tech as taught, then yeah, they probably will get hit. However, if they're teaching them to just react, and adjust to the situation, then the odds of survival probably went up a bit.

Personally, I'd imagine even if we did the tech the normal way, the handsword is going to cancel out a potential punch. We also need to consider where the badguy is when he's grabbing us. Is he directly to our right? Is he behind us on a 45? IMO, I'd imagine the grab will be followed by them turning us slightly, to better enable them to punch. Why risk busting your hand by hitting the back of the head? Hands up, turn into them, and counter with strikes.

Edit to add more: as for the last part, when you talked about a cop seeing this....again, this is why I've said numerous times, that its important for us, as MAists, to be able to adapt and alter what we do. Hitting the guy with a HS to the throat vs. a palm heel to the face...well, yeah, no brainer there...LOL.

 

[MJS]

keep it under 1000 words.

:lol:

 

[ATACX GYM]

Oh dear freakin' lord....



Right, but what is the process ("solve for x") that Sword and Hammer is teaching? I ask as you seem completely ignorant of it, and you may use a large number of words in your responses, but you don't actually say much. Is Sword and Hammer just any response against an attacker on your rear flank? Or is there something more to it, something that makes a particular strategic response "Sword and Hammer"?

Taking your "Tango" simile, a tango isn't a salsa, it's a tango... so what are the "steps" that make Sword and Hammer distinctly Sword and Hammer?

Honestly, until you finally classify what you see Sword and Hammer as being, I don't think we can be on the same page, because you seem to be ignoring what it actually is in your expression.... so, one more time now, what do you think is needed for a technique to be Sword and Hammer? It's kinda essential to the discussion of your version to understand what you think it is in the first place... and you've put down another 10 or so answers, taking up pages worth of space, you even state that it's a good question here, but have completely failed, again, to even attempt to answer it.

So, for the chance to go onto the next round, what do you think defines "Sword and Hammer"?

WHOSE Sword and Hammer are you asking about? As Doc said...THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. One of your gargantuan miscomprehensions is this simple fact. All of the rest of your conclusions are permanently toast due to your refusal to grasp this simple concept. The moment you accept this fact? You'll have a chance of asking one of many more correct questions, like:

Ras, what does YOUR Sword and Hammer teach? Why do you think it teaches such a thing? What qualifies YOUR Sword and Hammer as "Sword and Hammer"?

I would then answer...I already answered that. Go find the post on this thread where I went through this very question and answer session pages ago. I don't feel like reposting.

But I'll add a few other things for you:

There are reasons imho that the handsword and hammerfist were selected in my Gym and perhaps in others. The handsword is a weapon well fitted to striking the target of the throat and specific spots ON the throat from the initial angle traditionally taught and my subsequent experimentations very solidly showed that with proper training it can still strike the throat regardless of the position of your opponent. I can't speak for other teachers, but in my Gym there are 4 primary locations that we target with our handsword and later the hammer fist. These targets present themselves regardless of position, and they become more available for destruction as we manipulate our foe's body with our techs. Further there are specific nuerological responses that the combination of the handsword and hammerfist striking specific targets [ in my version those targets range from the throat to the groin to the kidney and liver and specific spots on the arm ] that are very important to learn and download at this rank in my Gym for further development and exploration and manipulation via technique as we progress further in my curriculum.

and there are very important ethical and Honor considerations in my Gym that we help the students to confront [ as we have already taught them this Code ] when we apply this tech. There's more...but I gtg.

And...What do you think the more common expression of Sword and Hammer is?




Originally Posted by ATACX GYM [ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:

A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.

B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.

C. Counterattack with reverse punch.

How easy is that?"


"Honestly? I see quite a few issues there... and frankly, the regular Sword and Hammer I'd class as superior in a number of ways."<--Chris Parker

Enumerate these problems, Chris.

 

[MJS]

WHOSE Sword and Hammer are you asking about? As Doc said...THERE IS NO IDEAL TECHNIQUE. One of your gargantuan miscomprehensions is this simple fact. All of the rest of your conclusions are permanently toast due to your refusal to grasp this simple concept. The moment you accept this fact? You'll have a chance of asking one of many more correct questions, like:

Ras, what does YOUR Sword and Hammer teach? Why do you think it teaches such a thing? What qualifies YOUR Sword and Hammer as "Sword and Hammer"?

I would then answer...I already answered that. Go find the post on this thread where I went through this very question and answer session pages ago. I don't feel like reposting.

But I'll add a few other things for you:

There are reasons imho that the handsword and hammerfist were selected in my Gym and perhaps in others. The handsword is a weapon well fitted to striking the target of the throat and specific spots ON the throat from the initial angle traditionally taught and my subsequent experimentations very solidly showed that with proper training it can still strike the throat regardless of the position of your opponent. I can't speak for other teachers, but in my Gym there are 4 primary locations that we target with our handsword and later the hammer fist. These targets present themselves regardless of position, and they become more available for destruction as we manipulate our foe's body with our techs. Further there are specific nuerological responses that the combination of the handsword and hammerfist striking specific targets [ in my version those targets range from the throat to the groin to the kidney and liver and specific spots on the arm ] that are very important to learn and download at this rank in my Gym for further development and exploration and manipulation via technique as we progress further in my curriculum.

and there are very important ethical and Honor considerations in my Gym that we help the students to confront [ as we have already taught them this Code ] when we apply this tech. There's more...but I gtg.

And...What do you think the more common expression of Sword and Hammer is?




Originally Posted by ATACX GYM [ Uhhh...I teach my students how to defeat this kind of attack BEFORE they're a WHITE BELT. Observe:

A. Bad guy grabs your right shoulder. No pushes or pulls. Cocks back fist.

B. Pre-White Belt Level A...the newest of all new newbs...smartly executes a right upward block under the shoulder grabbing left hand of BG. This block is timed with the punch. You lift or disengage the grab and block the punch at the same time.

C. Counterattack with reverse punch.

How easy is that?"


"Honestly? I see quite a few issues there... and frankly, the regular Sword and Hammer I'd class as superior in a number of ways."<--Chris Parker

Enumerate these problems, Chris.

But, as I said in a post back on page 8, 99% of the Kenpo schools out there, are teaching the same S&H. THIS is the issue that I believe Chris is talking about. The fact that your S&H looks nothing like the standard S&H, well....you know where I'm going, so no sense in saying it again.

 

[ATACX GYM]

But, as I said in a post back on page 8, 99% of the Kenpo schools out there, are teaching the same S&H. THIS is the issue that I believe Chris is talking about. The fact that your S&H looks nothing like the standard S&H, well....you know where I'm going, so no sense in saying it again.

Oh...you mean the question I've been answering in depth and in detail since page 2?

 

[Twin Fist]

you have invented a soft drink you think its better than coke.

it taste sort of like coke, but it is quite a bit different

if you tried to call it "coke" you would be guilty of a crime

fraud

you are, in essense, comitting fraud by using the EPAK names but not teachign the epak techniques.

now, if you teach the standard, then you use yours as well, thats ok. but you ought to rename your "version"

thats all you have to do, and quit talking your "that all sucks and my **** is better" crap and people would actually respect your work.

or not. But be advised, you KEEP putting it out there with your vids, you will keep catching hell

 

[ATACX GYM]

you have invented a soft drink you think its better than coke.

it taste sort of like coke, but it is quite a bit different

if you tried to call it "coke" you would be guilty of a crime

fraud

you are, in essense, comitting fraud by using the EPAK names but not teachign the epak techniques.

now, if you teach the standard, then you use yours as well, thats ok. but you ought to rename your "version"

thats all you have to do, and quit talking your "that all sucks and my **** is better" crap and people would actually respect your work.

or not. But be advised, you KEEP putting it out there with your vids, you will keep catching hell

1) The name EPAK was created as a business acronym after Mr. Parker died

2) In all my videos it says ATACX GYM KENPO KARATE or ATACX GYM [WHATEVER DISCIPLINE ]. Your contentions are empirically false in every way. If I saw TWIN FIST MARTIAL ARTS on a video...I wouldn't expect to see ATACX GYM anything in it. Or Ed Parker's anything. Do you see me saying in any video of mine ED PARKER KENPO KARATE? No? Then even your premise is empirically false and the accusation/contention of fraud in your post is disproved by your own eyes

3) "now, if you teach the standard, then you use yours as well, thats ok. but you ought to rename your "version".--Twin Fist

I've already done that. I've always done that. I already said that.

4) To borrow the phraseology suggestion of "sumdumguy"...the more common expression miscalled The IP does not suffice for that it doesn't work for all of the variants and variables that I work with or teach...because the rigors and challenges that I require are NOT the best case scenario. What I require as the base is something for more functional and realistic.