Strong man and martial arts

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by TigerLove, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. TigerLove

    TigerLove Green Belt

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    How does this going together? I searched over the net, and didn't find any articles about this..

    I believe that classic bodybuilding is bad for arts, because it learns your body to isolate muscles, instead of using them together.

    But what is with strongman training, where all muscles in your body works all the time?

    Exercises like truck tire rolling, farmer work, barrel throwing and so on - they are great for strength, but how they affect speed, reaction time, explosivity..

    Anybody knows?
     
  2. Nolerama

    Nolerama Master Black Belt

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    In conjunction with a proper MA workout in an alive training environment, MA-oriented calisthenics/stretching, and sparring, I see no problem doing the exercised you've mentioned to increase explosive power/anaerobic cardio. You do that sort of thing prior to competition.

    You can definitely get strong doing MA, but I think you're right in terms of bodybuilding and then going into the MAs. I've seen bodybuilders do well in striking ranges, but not above anyone else. No finesse in the clinch (they think their power compensates for proper mechanics... kind of like how some bodybuilders compensate for a lot of things by getting all beefy). And definitely no flexibility on the ground... Again, as pure bodybuilders going into the MAs.

    Also, think about all that muscle! That's a lot of lactic acid buildup in a very short amount of time which means a quicker fatigue. I've seen body builders gas out faster than, say, the nerdy WoW-playing kid in live drilling.

    But an athlete is an athlete, and that person will have to retool their body to go along with their training goals.
     
  3. Draven

    Draven Green Belt

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    I don't see anything wrong with classical wieght training, provided its done in conjunction with goal based training as well. For example, curls building bicepts & dip build tricepts (so push-ups). What muscle is primarily responsible for straightening your arm? Tricept & the bicept is chiefly responsible for bending your arm.

    How many times do you bend & straighten your arm during punching drills & wouldn't develloping those muscles be a good idea as well?

    Now that benefit of isolating certain muscles can be viewed as a benefit the next issue is what do want to do; your muscles are made up of two groups; fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch relates to sudden explosive power but slow twitch takes over as the endurance and long term exercise of the muscles kicks in.
     
  4. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    I think it all depends on the application. I think there is a certain contingent of martial artists that take personal offense at bodybuilding and bodybuilders, which leads to some of the very critical reactions.

    I think like anything else, it is a matter of how the student applies themselves. If a person spends 95% of their time on bodybuilding and 5% of their time on MA training and everything else...then yes, their training is going to suffer.

    Not all bodybuilders compete. The competitive body builders go through a cutting phase where they try to reduce the fat and water in their body at all costs, to give their muscles a more defined appearance. The ironic part of this practice is it breaks down muscle tissue in the process, and may (depending on method) even be detrimental to the person's overall health.

    However, bodybuilding can be an effective adjunct to a martial arts program. There are so many activities that can benefit a martial artist....if the MAist does them on a regular basis, and if they balance it with their other goals.

    For the MAist to stick with it, it must be an activity that they enjoy doing. Personally, I like to swim. I see many other ladies in my club that may mention a dislike of swimming. If a person dislikes swimming, bodybuilding, whatver, don't do it! Find a fitness activity you can enjoy and stick with...whatever that may be. :) I think strongman training is a great idea. It is not my cup of tea, but it certainly looks like like a great workout and a lot of fun. :)
     
  5. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    [​IMG]
     
  6. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    :eek:

    Not messin' with him. I'd even give him my unbroken maglite if he asked....
     
  7. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    I find that hard to believe, and I STILL won't tell you where I keep mine
    :D

    Bolo Yeung
     
  8. xJOHNx

    xJOHNx Purple Belt

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    The difference lies in the exercices used.
    The difference between true isolation exercices and compound exercices.

    Both of them will get you bigger, but in a different way. According to my experience compound exercices with a small amount of isolation exercices works best for MA's. Because most techniques in martial arts are not isolated to one joint as well.

    Does flexibility mean you can't have big muscles? No.
    Does big muscles mean you cannot succeed in ma? No.

    It just depends on your level of dedication (as in almost everything).

    I do ninjutsu and weight training. My normal weight is 130 pounds. The last 4 years I'm at 160 pounds more or less.
    I know of a guy at the rosstraining forum: he's a blackbelt TKD, can still kick very high, is flexible as he demonstrated some yoga positions and is a powerlifter as well. I believe Charles is his name or something similar.

    Most of the times, the mind is the limit, not the body.
     
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  9. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Purple Belt

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    Bolo doesn't ask for your Maglite. He just flexes his pecs and the Maglite magically appears in his possession.

    Broken.
     
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  10. TigerLove

    TigerLove Green Belt

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    This is video i found on youtube, which shows part of exercices i mentioned.

    Today was the first time i tried this, after i felted pretty exhausted.

    Also, it's pretty cool jumping around with concret blocks, tires, trees, on the fresh air. And, for me there is no way pulling around concret blocks without yellin, so it's also great way to check my kihap :)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNHWVMwNSvE&feature=related

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEfqYRVeH2g&feature=related

    And, i must mention something that's not so cool - pain in my back. I wasn't caution all the time, so i did few exercices wrong. At this type of training, it's not good to make mistakes.
     
  11. David43515

    David43515 Master Black Belt

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    Historically most of the successfull fighters in martial arts did some kind of strength training. And there are some techniques that simply won`t work if you aren`t strong enough to do them correctly.

    I don`t want to argue about power vs finess. That`s a losing game because both are vital to success and one w/o the other won`t get you anywhere. But if the OP was asking about isolation exercises vs compound exercises.....I`d say you need a blend, but always favor compound exercises. The coordination they teach is much more useful in the longrun.
     
  12. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

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    Very good. But brick not hit back!
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Look at Rosstraining.com. That's just one site dedicated to helping people become strong, explosive and athletic through low-tech, caveman, strong man type workouts. Pulling sleds, lifting bags and developing coordinated power are the goals.

    Many MMA gyms swear by this sort of thing and the workouts are often balanced between the weight room, kettle ball training and some amount of caveman style training (and a ton of cardio).

    If your question is whether this sort of training can be beneficial, I'd say without a doubt that it can be tremendously helpful.

    If you're asking whether the typical strongman could be good at martial arts, that's a different discussion entirely. I'd say that it depends upon the style.

    Steve
     
  14. TigerLove

    TigerLove Green Belt

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    Yes, my question was the first case of this two you mentioned. I remember, while working with my friends in forest, carryng lumbers around maked me so strong, it was unbelieveable.

    About second case, you are right, that's different discussion.
     
  15. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Two very famous martial arts figures who advocated body building. The first was Bruce Lee. The second was Dolph Lundgren.
    Neither man lacked in skill, flexibility or power and I doubt that either was compensating.

    Daniel
     
  16. bowser666

    bowser666 2nd Black Belt

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    you............are....................next !!
     
  17. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Wait. Are we talking body building or strength training?

    Bodybuilders often look strong, but aren't. As with most things, bodybuilding as a sport has a very specific aesthetic. It's a funny thing, but the strongest bodybuilders often have very weak cores, intentionally. The thicker and stronger their obliques, the less pronounced the taper through their waist. So, while they can push a lot of weight on a rack, their actual, functional strength is pretty low. Add to this that they are often dangerously dehydrated and weak at exactly the time they are theoretically looking their best, during a competition.

    In contrast, guys like Magnus Ver Magnusson are thick through their core and train for power, strength and explosiveness. I was reading an article by Bas Rutten who said something like, "Look guys. We're not training for the beach. We're training to be strong."
     
  18. Daniel Sullivan

    Daniel Sullivan Grandmaster

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    Neither man was/is a body builder, but both did body building as part of their training, and I believe that both men were/are outspoken about it. Lee was very obviously body building in addition to whatever else he did. Lundgren has openly stated that he does some body building. In fact he had to for Masters of the Universe in order to 'look like He-Man.' And I don't think that anyone would classify either man as having been built just for show.

    Also, at one point, in Austria, Schwarzenegger held some kind of stone lifting record. Schwarzenegger was known to be very, very functionally strong in his prime.

    As a general rule, I would think that body builders would have the same issues transitioning from one endeavor to another as anyone else would. Training methods would need to be adjusted, diet perhaps changed, and of course, the openness to learning must be there. Anyone, body builder or not, who muscles through technique rather than doing it correctly simply because they can (or think that they can) is going to develop bad habits and progress more slowly.

    But then don't all beginners have some kind of baggage that must be dealt with?

    At least with a body builder, basic fitness is already taken care of and the benefits of strength training are well understood, which is not always the case for many in the arts, even some who are highly accomplished instructors.

    I think that most body builders understand that there is a difference between training for competition and strength training. Most train differently when preparing for competition than when they are just 'working out' in between.

    Daniel
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    Lundgren was I believe a kick boxer first.

    The only issue I have ever run across with a body builder was that the appear to hold their center too high and they are easily up rooted.
     
  20. repz

    repz Green Belt

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    Compound exercises are the best workout for any sports (compound are usually strength exercises), thats why its the common workout plan for many athletes across many sports. When it comes to movement, be it charging an offensive line, or training sprawls, you use more then one muscle, so it would make sense to train them in the same fashion. Since compound uses more than one muscle, they allow you to lift more, which means you increase strength faster, and in more realistic proportion since these workouts are usually everday movements that can relate to other physical activities im sports and ma.

    But, compound workouts do have their flaws. A bench press is known to hit chest (more of chest obviously), triceps and shoulders mostly, but many still need shoulder presses to force the shoulders to catch up, since a large part of the tension isnt hit by all the muscles at the same range of time. So, isolation is good if its to target lagging muscles, good examples are calves, which (for some, like myself) usually are hard to grow with leg workouts.

    A common mistake in martial arts is that working out restricts flexibility. This is not true, its actually the opposite, since a rep usually flexes and stretches the muscle during the movement. Having huge size can hinder flexibility, which is another matter entirely, and even this has its exceptions (I'm pretty muscular to stand out on the beach, and I am inches from a full split).

    Best workout is to do bursts workouts. Like training with a set time frame, for example, finishing a set within 40 seconds. This trains the body in releasing a huge burst of strength and endurance for quick bursts, and to rest, to repeat the process, which is good for wrestling, and point karate. Also, circuit training is good, it builds the above, but with more overal cardio/endurance training.

    I changed to a strength training workout to add more power to my karate. Once my power numbers go up, i will switch to supersets (which is two sets done back to back) with more cardio since the higher in belt i go, the more people i am expected to fight back to back. I have to do what I can, considering I am one of the shortest people in my dojo.123
     

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